Author Topic: Your favorite mono recordings  (Read 1753 times)

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Offline Todd

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2022, 11:54:56 AM »
This is the way to give ESL 57s the power to shift more air.

What is the xmax of an ESL 57?
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Offline hvbias

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2022, 11:57:36 AM »
I find that literally impossible to believe.  All brands of electrostats are less capable of reproducing piano than either dynamic drivers or some planars.  I doubt they would be able to reproduce cello in a satisfactory way, but maybe.

Yes, I should have said for instrument timbre they're the most realistic sounding, but that doesn't include reproducing realistic SPL. You will not be able to get SPL from what is heard at the piano or in nearby seats at a concert. Hence one of the reasons I was looking for something to replace them which didn't exist until a few years ago.

I've listened to plenty of solo cello at much louder than concert volumes from near a cello and they reproduce this with ease.

I have heard Sound Lab 845 electrostats in a dealer's setup and these will reproduce piano at realistic SPLs (or other music at levels I'd want to have Etymotic earplugs in for), but they had other issues.

Quote
What blind testing?

Floyd Toole's research, about 40 years worth of it. This video is a brief overview of it: https://youtu.be/zrpUDuUtxPM

This book goes into far more detail: https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers-Engineering/dp/113892136X/

Basically the measured off axis response of the speakers needs to be similar to the on axis response because we're not listening to speakers outdoors, we're also hearing the reflected sound off the walls.

This is the way to give ESL 57s the power to shift more air.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325286877772?mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&siteid=0&customid=link&campid=5338728743&toolid=20001&mkevt=1

It won't solve everything and will introduce other problems. I've never had any interest in it.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2022, 11:59:58 AM by hvbias »
"I feel very strongly about Chopin — I just love him" - Fou Ts'ong

Offline Dry Brett Kavanaugh

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2022, 12:37:12 PM »
Here's a favourite of mine -- Furtwangler in rehearsal in 1948. Brahms 4. It's just amazing what he got them to do. And it's great to actually see him in action, the icy eyes, the relaxed body, like a rag doll. This is possibly the best Brahms 4 ever. Except it's only a rehearsal and we only have five minutes of it. But what five minutes!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leYbb5KZYDg&ab_channel=FrancisZhou

There's a story that Mravinsky once cancelled the concert because the rehearsal was so good . . .

Incredible!

Offline Dry Brett Kavanaugh

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2022, 12:38:49 PM »
Hi DBK,

There are so many wonderful recordings that were released either only in mono or mono AND stereo.

As I think it was Todd (who beat me to it) had mentioned, the Beethoven mono recordings with Kempff are particularly wonderful.  He recorded them three times but not in totality.  The set that I have (and love) is this one: 



Gieseking playing Debussy...to die for.  :)  Will have to double-check what else I have of his...

Several of Cortot's recordings are very special to me; in particular, his recording of Chopin's PC No. 2 with Barbirolli (the one that I have is on Naxos).  His Franck, Saint-Saens, Ravel album (also on Naxos) is wonderful.  I grew so enamored of Cortot that I bought an EMI boxed set of his...trying to remember the name of the series....Icons, I believe.

There are so many great recordings out there.

By the way, one theory that I have re sound quality:  Don't try and listen to them on a very current, super-high detailed system which shows everything.  I find that I enjoy them better on a "less-than-perfect" system.  That, and just be willing and able to let any dated recording ways just go to the wayside and immerse yourself in the performance.  That said, in some cases, I'm pleasantly surprised how good some of the later ones sound on my better system.  I'm curious as to what others think of my comments?

PD

I checked the Kempff via streaming, and the recording is lovely!

Offline Todd

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2022, 12:40:25 PM »
Yes, I should have said for instrument timbre they're the most realistic sounding, but that doesn't include reproducing realistic SPL....

I have heard Sound Lab 845 electrostats in a dealer's setup and these will reproduce piano at realistic SPLs (or other music at levels I'd want to have Etymotic earplugs in for)

I doubt both assertions, the first because of how ESL 57s have been reported to behave in room in terms of measured frequency response, and the second because of the amount of amplifier power that would be needed to reproduce just midrange at forte, let alone fortissimo.  But maybe.  (I don't know Sound Lab specs, so maybe they are easy to drive.)  Without measurements it's only anecdotal.


Floyd Toole's research, about 40 years worth of it. This video is a brief overview of it: https://youtu.be/zrpUDuUtxPM

Toole's work is an excellent approach to use for people who care about sound.  Most people don't. 
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Offline hvbias

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2022, 02:29:57 AM »
I doubt both assertions, the first because of how ESL 57s have been reported to behave in room in terms of measured frequency response, and the second because of the amount of amplifier power that would be needed to reproduce just midrange at forte, let alone fortissimo. 

No, unless you have a Klippel at the minimum in room behavior (presuming you mean the power response) is meaningless. I am trying to arrange for this to happen, but it's complex without having good shipping boxes. They will not reproduce piano at fortissimo.

Quote
But maybe.  (I don't know Sound Lab specs, so maybe they are easy to drive.)  Without measurements it's only anecdotal.

Of course, we're talking about subjective experiences of instruments. Having something like distortion at various SPL from 20 to 500 Hz would be more meaningful and unequivocal.

Quote
Toole's work is an excellent approach to use for people who care about sound.  Most people don't.

No doubt, I'm wondering why you were asking about "what blind testing?" if you knew Toole's work, just seemed odd. The principles of what he published in his book seem to hold true for all the best sounding speakers I've heard, with one extra caveat (I'm still on the first edition, maybe this is addressed in the third) that has only relatively recently had more developments- replacing all passive crossovers with DSP.

How do you know?

Pretty simple, you're a blind squirrel trying to find a nut if you don't have the proper tools to design a loudspeaker, it's possible to design something that is good enough or something the owner is happy with. This would apply to all DIY'ers and audiophile boutique speaker companies that aim more to impress with high priced Serbian ribbon drivers, brag about using the same Scandanavian drivers some speaker company charging $250k for speakers or Japanese drivers made from old masters having decades of stamping on paper from an extinct tree. At best you might see some overly smoothed single point measurement from them.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2022, 02:43:13 AM by hvbias »
"I feel very strongly about Chopin — I just love him" - Fou Ts'ong

Offline hvbias

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2022, 02:53:59 AM »
This is the way to give ESL 57s the power to shift more air.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325286877772?mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&siteid=0&customid=link&campid=5338728743&toolid=20001&mkevt=1

I was a bit pressed for time yesterday as we were leaving for the weekend, so I couldn't expand on this issues with this- both speakers are playing in phase; they would have to be. With that I would have to imagine the effects of comb filtering would cause some odd and I would think very obvious cancellations.

In general I've noticed people can not be too picky if they have some preformed dharma in their head. Harman/Olive's "what to listen for training" makes things like this (or most velocity issues) much more obvious.
"I feel very strongly about Chopin — I just love him" - Fou Ts'ong

Offline Todd

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2022, 04:21:13 AM »
No, unless you have a Klippel at the minimum in room behavior (presuming you mean the power response) is meaningless.

This is part of the Quad mythology. 


Of course, we're talking about subjective experiences of instruments.

This would be easy enough to objectively measure at all frequencies and SPLs.  Loudspeakers cannot reproduce the midrange of piano played at forte or fortissimo accurately without enormous amounts of power, and many drivers do not have the physical capacity to reproduce the piano accurately.  So we are indeed left with anecdotes.


The principles of what he published in his book seem to hold true for all the best sounding speakers I've heard

Out of curiosity, were Quad ESL 57s among the speakers tested?  Beyond that, the emphasis on flatter frequency response is more or less a given for good sound for many speakers, though some designers pursue other objectives.

Also, active crossovers have been used for decades, especially in studio gear, and they typically sound better than passive crossovers.  DSP may or may not represent an improvement.  That would require comparative measurements and listening. 


Pretty simple, you're a blind squirrel trying to find a nut if you don't have the proper tools to design a loudspeaker, it's possible to design something that is good enough or something the owner is happy with. This would apply to all DIY'ers and audiophile boutique speaker companies that aim more to impress with high priced Serbian ribbon drivers, brag about using the same Scandanavian drivers some speaker company charging $250k for speakers or Japanese drivers made from old masters having decades of stamping on paper from an extinct tree. At best you might see some overly smoothed single point measurement from them.

In other words, you don't know. 
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2022, 04:32:18 AM »
I checked the Kempff via streaming, and the recording is lovely!
Glad that you enjoyed what you have heard!

PD

Offline Spotted Horses

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2022, 04:36:10 AM »
I was a bit pressed for time yesterday as we were leaving for the weekend, so I couldn't expand on this issues with this- both speakers are playing in phase; they would have to be. With that I would have to imagine the effects of comb filtering would cause some odd and I would think very obvious cancellations.

The comb filtering is there, but you don't really have two point sources interfering at the listener's location. In addition to the primary sources you have multiple reflections arriving at your ear from various surfaces in the room, which will never be symmetric, so at no frequency will you have two waves out of phase producing complete cancelation.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2022, 07:05:58 AM »
Bronislaw Huberman, George Szell, Vienna PO - Beethoven Violin Concerto (1935)
Wilhelm Backhaus, Karl Bohm, Vienna SO - Beethoven PC 4 (1950)
Lev Oborin, Aleksandr Gauk, USSR State and Radio SO - Tchaikovsky PC 1 (1948)

The absolutely unsurpassable renditions of these works for me.
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2022, 07:28:41 AM »
Bronislaw Huberman, George Szell, Vienna PO - Beethoven Violin Concerto (1935)
Wilhelm Backhaus, Karl Bohm, Vienna SO - Beethoven PC 4 (1950)
Lev Oborin, Aleksandr Gauk, USSR State and Radio SO - Tchaikovsky PC 1 (1948)

The absolutely unsurpassable renditions of these works for me.

I've not heard the Szell/Huberman for years, but I remember that the two spark it off very well, Furtwangler/Fischer Beethoven PC5 is a bit like that. Here's a list of this sort of thing that I made more than 10 years ago, when I was into that sort of thing more. Some of it may be stereo, I'm not sure. I think today I'd add more Mengelberg -- but, I don't want to think about it too much: been there, done that, and this list is the tee shirt. I'm too cool for 19th century concertos now .



Scherchen's Handel Concerti Grossi Op 6
Ervin Nyiregyhazi playing Liszt Legends
Ervin Nyiregyhazi playing Rachmaninov Symphony 2
Ervin Nyiregyhazi playing the threnodies from Liszt Aneees
Mengelberg's live Beethoven 6
Scherchen's Matthew Passion
Mengelberg's Matthew Passion
Mengelberg's Bach cantatas
Mengelberg's Brahms Violin Concerto
Mengelberg Brahms 1
Anything sung by Erb
Felix Prohaska Bach cantatas with Stich-Randall
Furtwangler's Beethoven 3
Pfitzner's Beethoven 3 and 6
Furtwangler's Beethoven 4
Furtwangler's Brahms 1
Furtwangler's Brahms 2
Furtwangler's Brahms 4
Furtwangler's Tristan (the one with the missing Act 1)
Furtwangler's Metamorphosen
Furtwangler's Gran Partita
Furtwangler's Bruckner 5
Furtwangler's Bruckner 7
Furtwangler's Bruckner 9
Furtwangler's Beethoven 9
Furtwangler playing the Grosse Fuge
Albert Coates playing the Jupiter Symphony
The last 40 minutes of Furtwangler's Matthew Passion
Richter's Christmas Oratorio
Richter's St John Passion
Knappertsbusch's Parsifal with Vickers
Furtwangler's Schubert 9
Furtwangler's Schubert 8
Jurgen Jurgen's Monteverdi Vespers
Mengelberg live Schubert 9
Casals prelude to Cello Suites 5 and 6
Tocanini's Missa Solemnis with Kipnis
Segovia playing the Bach Chaconne
Tureck playing the Goldbergs and Partitas on Great Pianists
The largo from Chopin sonata 3 by Rosenthal
Cortot playing Schumann's Etudes (1950s) and Davidsbundlertanze
Cortot playing Chopin Walzes, nocturnes, sonatas, preludes, etudes and everything else
Edwin Fischer playing the last half of Bk 2 of WTC
Edwin Fischer playing Beethoven Op 110
Casals live cello suite 3
Scherchen playing Haydn 88
Levy playing the big  Liszt sonata
Peter Pears singing the Britten Serenade
Ney/Boehm Beethoven PC5, final movement only
Fischer/Furtwangler Brahms PC2
Arrau playing Op 111 on the VAI DVD
The young Souzay singing Nacht und Traume
Hubermann playing the slow movement of the Beethoven Concerto
Feuermann plaing the Ghost sonata and the Haydn Concerto
Busch Bros playing the Bach double Violin Concerto
Szigetti playing the Bach chaconne
Schnabel in the largo of Mozart PC 27
Schnabel's Brahms Intermeszzi
Schorr singing Wotan in Walkure
Solti's Gotterdammerung
Walcha playing Bach's English Suites
Bruno Walter playing the Mozart Funeral March thing
Hotter/Moore Winterreise
Hotter Bach cantatas
Kipnis Brahms serious songs
When the anti aircraft guns fire in Landowska's Scarlatti
« Last Edit: September 16, 2022, 07:33:05 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Dry Brett Kavanaugh

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #52 on: September 16, 2022, 08:42:50 AM »
I've not heard the Szell/Huberman for years, but I remember that the two spark it off very well, Furtwangler/Fischer Beethoven PC5 is a bit like that. Here's a list of this sort of thing that I made more than 10 years ago, when I was into that sort of thing more. Some of it may be stereo, I'm not sure. I think today I'd add more Mengelberg -- but, I don't want to think about it too much: been there, done that, and this list is the tee shirt. I'm too cool for 19th century concertos now .


tti

The list is very informative! I will check some of them. Thanks a lot.

P.s. The Segovia looks interesting. I don’t know anything about Ervin Nyiregyhazi.


Bronislaw Huberman, George Szell, Vienna PO - Beethoven Violin Concerto (1935)
Wilhelm Backhaus, Karl Bohm, Vienna SO - Beethoven PC 4 (1950)
Lev Oborin, Aleksandr Gauk, USSR State and Radio SO - Tchaikovsky PC 1 (1948)

The absolutely unsurpassable renditions of these works for me.


I like the recordings of Gauk too!
« Last Edit: September 16, 2022, 08:49:57 AM by Dry Brett Kavanaugh »

Offline hvbias

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2022, 09:57:33 AM »
Text

The comb filtering is there, but you don't really have two point sources interfering at the listener's location. In addition to the primary sources you have multiple reflections arriving at your ear from various surfaces in the room, which will never be symmetric, so at no frequency will you have two waves out of phase producing complete cancelation.

Moved to a more appropriate thread: https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1069.msg1470926.html#msg1470926
"I feel very strongly about Chopin — I just love him" - Fou Ts'ong

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2022, 10:12:40 AM »
The list is very informative! I will check some of them. Thanks a lot.

P.s. The Segovia looks interesting.

I listened to the Segovia very recently. These days I prefer the Bream.

I don’t know anything about Ervin Nyiregyhazi.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0S1KDOC8is&ab_channel=pianopera
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Offline hvbias

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2022, 11:05:09 AM »
DBK apologies for derailing the thread, I'll mention just one since there are so many fine performances already brought up. I compartmentalize classical music in my head by composer -> work, with performances nested under work; with my field I learned I needed to have a meticulous method of organizing information, so it's not the best way to retrieve this information out of order :)

Godowsky playing Godowsky's studies on Chopin's Etudes, these are if nothing else interesting to listen to the composer play them. Godowsky didn't record all but many are present on Marston Records volumes. As legendary a reputation he has, in reality Marc-André Hamelin outclasses him in sheer technical brilliance. And then if one has more interest than that David Stanhope has a superb DVD where he contrasts them against Chopin's.
"I feel very strongly about Chopin — I just love him" - Fou Ts'ong

Offline Florestan

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2022, 11:14:47 AM »
apologies for derailing the thread

No ofense meant but the whole kerfuffle strikes me as a conspicuous case of not seeing (or rather hearing) the forest because of the trees.  ;D

"In religion, philosophy and morality, obedience; in art and literature, independence." - Ricardo Viñes

Offline hvbias

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2022, 11:26:08 AM »
No ofense meant but the whole kerfuffle strikes me as a conspicuous case of not seeing (or rather hearing) the forest because of the trees.  ;D

No offense taken, I lived in NYC for six years, it would take a lot to offend me, very easily count it on one hand in all my years on GMG which was a flat out racist comment. I think it would be a tired trope if this was on an audiophile message board, but I imagine the two or three that engaged in this are simply using speakers as a tool to hear music rather than music to hear the speakers.

I am genuinely not picky about recording quality, I think I am approaching 600 CDs for recordings made in the acoustic/78/acetate era, I don't want to think about the box sets :blank: . I have no interest in worrying about things that are out of my control (recording quality, mono, stereo, etc). When things are in my control, then I am very interested :)
"I feel very strongly about Chopin — I just love him" - Fou Ts'ong

Offline Florestan

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2022, 11:36:56 AM »
What I mean is that the audiences of Liszt or Chopin could not care less about amps, frequencies or whatever... yet I am convinced that their relaționship to music was more profound than ours.
"In religion, philosophy and morality, obedience; in art and literature, independence." - Ricardo Viñes

Offline Dry Brett Kavanaugh

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Re: Your favorite mono recordings
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2022, 12:28:08 PM »
DBK apologies for derailing the thread, I'll mention just one since there are so many fine performances already brought up. I compartmentalize classical music in my head by composer -> work, with performances nested under work; with my field I learned I needed to have a meticulous method of organizing information, so it's not the best way to retrieve this information out of order :)

Godowsky playing Godowsky's studies on Chopin's Etudes, these are if nothing else interesting to listen to the composer play them. Godowsky didn't record all but many are present on Marston Records volumes. As legendary a reputation he has, in reality Marc-André Hamelin outclasses him in sheer technical brilliance. And then if one has more interest than that David Stanhope has a superb DVD where he contrasts them against Chopin's.

No problem at all. Discussion on audio set is welcome.


I listened to the Segovia very recently. These days I prefer the Bream.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0S1KDOC8is&ab_channel=pianopera

Bream is my fav guitarist.