What performances would you witness using a time machine?

[Lisztianwagner]

If you go back to Karajan's performance of Bruckner 8, WPO, at Carnegie Hall, February 1989, I'll meet you there.

See you there, then!  Or for Karajan's performance of Mahler 9 at the Berlin Festival in 1982.

[Spotted Horses]

That would be nice too. The Bruckner concert was the only time I saw Karajan live. It was sublime. If you time traveled to the Bruckner performance you'd see my 27 year old self there.

Another great one to travel to would be the 1960's performances of the Ring in Salzburg. The studio recordings are wonderful, but from what I've heard the live Salzburg recordings are a level above.

[Lisztianwagner]

That would be nice too. The Bruckner concert was the only time I saw Karajan live. It was sublime. If you time traveled to the Bruckner performance you'd see my 27 year old self there.

Another great one to travel to would be the 1960's performances of the Ring in Salzburg. The studio recordings are wonderful, but from what I've heard the live Salzburg recordings are a level above.

What luck, I envy you very much! Unfortunately I'm too young to have ever seen Karajan conducting live, but it's not hard to imagine how outstanding it was.

Definitely, the Ring in Salzburg would be great too!

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Here I don't need the time machine as I actually have heard him play Beethoven sonatas at a recital (op. 31/3, 57, 78 and 101). Great experience - he was much more free than in his stereo recording from the same time and also more technically secure than in his live recordings from Japan. 

Cool!  When and where did you hear him play premont? 

PD

[LKB]

OT for one post here, because something is driving me to distraction.

The man's last name is, " von Karajan ", not " Karajan ".

Yes, I know it's a habit which is easy to fall into. I used to be guilty of it myself, even though my Dutch last name also has two parts, beginning with " Van ".

But I finally realized that just as l won't allow others to vandalize my last name, I should show the same respect to HvK, even though he's not around to appreciate it. 

Let's not amputate the man's family name for convenience, please. 

[prémont]

Cool!  When and where did you hear him play premont? 

In the mid 1960'es (don't recall the precise year) at The Odd Fellow Palæ in Copenhagen (which had a very fine acoustics but unfortunately some years later burnt into asches). He was on a tournée to promote his upcoming stereo recording of the sonatas. I was very young and very occupied with Beethoven and did know three of the four sonatas already from his earlier mono recordings.

[Spotted Horses]

OT for one post here, because something is driving me to distraction.

The man's last name is, " von Karajan ", not " Karajan ".

Yes, I know it's a habit which is easy to fall into. I used to be guilty of it myself, even though my Dutch last name also has two parts, beginning with " Van ".

But I finally realized that just as l won't allow others to vandalize my last name, I should show the same respect to HvK, even though he's not around to appreciate it. 

Let's not amputate the man's family name for convenience, please. 

This appeared during von Karajan's lifetime, and presumably was approved by the Herbie, without the "von."



Maybe it would be fun to provoke Mozart by time traveling to let him hear a performance of his work by another of my favorite, conductors, Johann Nikolaus Graf de la Fontaine und d'Harnoncourt-Unverzagt (since we strive to be proper here).

[Pohjolas Daughter]

In the mid 1960'es (don't recall the precise year) at The Odd Fellow Palæ in Copenhagen (which had a very fine acoustics but unfortunately some years later burnt into asches). He was on a tournée to promote his upcoming stereo recording of the sonatas. I was very young and very occupied with Beethoven and did know three of the four sonatas already from his earlier mono recordings.

That must have been a special concert.    Sorry to hear though about the hall burning down.

PD

[Florestan]

OT for one post here, because something is driving me to distraction.

The man's last name is, " von Karajan ", not " Karajan ".

Yes, I know it's a habit which is easy to fall into. I used to be guilty of it myself, even though my Dutch last name also has two parts, beginning with " Van ".

But I finally realized that just as l won't allow others to vandalize my last name, I should show the same respect to HvK, even though he's not around to appreciate it. 

Let's not amputate the man's family name for convenience, please. 

By the same token, it's van Beethoven who composed the Hammerklavier sonata; Der Freischuetz was composed by von Weber and Passacaglia Op. 1 by von Webern. Many famous fables were written by de La Fontaine; de Chateaubriand and de Nerval were two prominent French Romantic writers and de Toulouse-Lautrec was a famous French painter, although not as famous as the Spanish Ruiz y Picasso.   

Let's not be pedantic for the sake of correctness, please!

[ritter]

OT for one post here, because something is driving me to distraction.

The man's last name is, " von Karajan ", not " Karajan ".

Yes, I know it's a habit which is easy to fall into. I used to be guilty of it myself, even though my Dutch last name also has two parts, beginning with " Van ".

But I finally realized that just as l won't allow others to vandalize my last name, I should show the same respect to HvK, even though he's not around to appreciate it. 

Let's not amputate the man's family name for convenience, please. 

Not to be pedantic, but in German, one usually drops the particle when referring to someone by last name only. So, one would say e.g. "Karajan conducted the Ring in Bayreuth in 1951", not "von Karajan conducted...". If you use the full name, or address the person directly, then you would include the particle. "Herbert von Karajan conducted....", "Mr. von Karajan, did you conduct the Ring in Bayreuth in 1951?".

Actually, I as a German speaker find it awkward to read a sentence of the type "when von Karajan first appeared at La Scala" instead of "when Karajan first appeared...".

I recently travelled for business with a German colleague whose family name has the "von" particle. Since he speaks no Spanish, I handled the check-in at the hotel. Gave our family names to the receptionist, his with the "von" particle;  he advised me that in that context that was not correct.

[Florestan]

Not to be pedantic, but in German, one usually drops the particle when referring to someone by last name only. So, one would say e.g. "Karajan conducted the Ring in Bayreuth in 1951", not "von Karajan conducted...". If you use the full name, or address the person directly, then you would include the particle. "Herbert von Karajan conducted....", "Mr. von Karajan, did you conduct the Ring in Bayreuth in 1951?".

Given he was awarded an honorary doctorate from the Oxford University, the correct direct appellation following the German usage would be Dr. von Karajan, as in "Dr. von Karajan, were you a Nazi?". 

[Todd]

Not to be pedantic, but in German, one usually drops the particle when referring to someone by last name only.

So you're saying an elderly American male tried to mansplain German? 

I shall endeavor to call the conductor Fluffy going forward, to avoid possible confusion.

[Papy Oli]

Not to be pedantic, but in German, one usually drops the particle when referring to someone by last name only. So, one would say e.g. "Karajan conducted the Ring in Bayreuth in 1951", not "von Karajan conducted...". If you use the full name, or address the person directly, then you would include the particle. "Herbert von Karajan conducted....", "Mr. von Karajan, did you conduct the Ring in Bayreuth in 1951?".

Actually, I as a German speaker find it awkward to read a sentence of the type "when von Karajan first appeared at La Scala" instead of "when Karajan first appeared".

I recently travelled for business with a German colleague whose family name has the "von" particle. Since he speaks no Spanish, I handled the check-in at the hotel. Gave our family names to the receptionist, his with the "von" particle;  he advised me that in that context that was not correct.

You think Herbie is a problem...

Spare a thought for the German Baroque composer Johann Gambolputty de von Ausfern-schplenden-schlitter-crasscrenbon-fried-digger-dingle-dangle-dongle-dungle-burstein-von-knacker-thrasher-apple-banger-horowitz-ticolensic-grander-knotty-spelltinkle-grandlich-grumblemeyer-spelterwasser-kurstlich-himbleeisen-bahnwagen-gutenabend-bitte-ein-nürnburger-bratwustle-gerspurten-mitzweimache-luber-hundsfut-gumberaber-shönendanker-kalbsfleisch-mittler-aucher von Hautkopft of Ulm.

How do we check him in ? 

[ritter]

Given he was awarded an honorary doctorate from the Oxford University, the correct direct appellation following the German usage would be Dr. von Karajan. 

But that pales in comparison to Österreichischer Generalmusikdirektor Herr Doktor Karl Böhm...

On particles, we have a similar approach in Spanish. The composer's name is Manuel de Falla, but we'll say "The Three-Cornered Hat was composed by Falla", not "...composed by de Falla".

This reminds me of a poster in a Spanish-language opera forum where a poster will say things like "when Turandot was premiered at alla Scala", which is a real eyesore. It should be "...premiered at La Scala" (even if the theatre's name is Teatro alla Scala".

[Florestan]

But that pales in comparison to Österreichischer Generalmusikdirektor Herr Doktor Karl Böhm...

 

[Florestan]

But that pales in comparison to Österreichischer Generalmusikdirektor Herr Doktor Karl Böhm...

On particles, we have a similar approach in Spanish. The composer's name is Manuel de Falla, but we'll say "The Three-Cornered Hat was composed by Falla", not "...composed by de Falla".

This reminds me of a poster in a Spanish-language opera forum where a poster will say things like "when Turandot was premiered at alla Scala", which is a real eyesore. It should be "...premiered at La Scala" (even if the theatre's name is Teatro alla Scala".

I am reminded of the worst novel I've ever read, The Da Vinci Code. Da Vinci as substitute for Leonardo da Vinci is exactly like of Nazareth as a susbtitute for Jesus of Nazareth. 

[Jo498]

Böhm actually got a Dr. jur. before/parallel to his music studies, not only honorary doctorates. And being Austrian, I bet he had both a bunch of honorary doctorates and professorships as well as other odd titles. But the proper honorific for conductors is just Maestro...
In lexica or phone books it will always be "Karajan, Herbert von".
Even when nobility had meaning in the 19th century, if one didn't use the full name one would usually skip the "von", e.g. "Bismarck was chancellor of the German Reich in 1880", or "Otto von Bismarck..." but not "Von Bismarck was Reichskanzler". It would just be tedious because virtually all politicians and generals had nobility predicates.
Tbh I didn't check 19th century sources but I never read it differently in any history book or historical novel (and I read sufficiently old-fashioned ones that were written back then or would reflect 19th century usage.)
NB it does not mean one can drop the "von" in the full name or when addressing someone, as has also been pointed out above.

[Jo498]

I am reminded of the worst novel I've ever read, The Da Vinci Code. Da Vinci as substitute for Leonardo da Vinci is exactly like of Nazareth as a susbtitute for Jesus of Nazareth. 

This was a good indication of the insufferable historical and cultural ignorance of Dan Brown. Even the Ninja Turtles knew that it should be Leonardo unless the full name was used.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

This was a good indication of the insufferable historical and cultural ignorance of Dan Brown. Even the Ninja Turtles knew that it should be Leonardo unless the full name was used.

PD

[Todd]

This was a good indication of the insufferable historical and cultural ignorance of Dan Brown.

Brown is the de Cervantes of our time.