Started by lordlance, February 27, 2023, 10:14:38 PM
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Quote from: Todd on February 28, 2023, 12:09:49 PMThis is true for everyone.
Quote from: Todd on February 28, 2023, 11:49:24 AMSo, no real data
Quotea lot of conjecture.
QuoteIt is of course worth noting that the number of performances does not equate to significance and influence, let alone quality to current audiences.
Quote from: DavidW on February 28, 2023, 12:05:50 PMLife is too short, listen to what you like. But... please don't insinuate that Beethoven's contemporaries are "undistinguished" just because they are not your cup of tea.
Quote from: Florestan on February 28, 2023, 12:33:56 PMI read several books dealing with 19th century opera in general and 19th century operatic composers in particular, written by professional music historians, featuring numerous footnotes and long reference lists.
Quote from: Florestan on February 28, 2023, 12:33:56 PMOtherwise, it is of course worth noting that what 19th century operatic audiences considered significant and influential and quality-ladden is, with a few notable exceptions, what current operatic audiences still consider significant and influential and quality-ladden.
Quote from: DavidW on February 28, 2023, 12:05:50 PMI guess you better not listen to Xenakis or Carter then if your judgment is based upon memorable melody!
Quote from: Brian on February 28, 2023, 01:02:35 PMAside from Ode to Joy, what is the "best" melody by Beethoven? The finale of the Sixth? The Prometheus/Eroica tune? The slow movement of the quartet Op. 59 No. 1?
Quote from: Brian on February 28, 2023, 01:02:35 PMEven Beethoven's melodies are a little eccentric! Although they are often "memorable," it's very rare to find a Beethoven melody as "beautiful" or "singable" or "lyrical" as the best melodies by, say, Brahms or Dvorak. I mean, imagine walking down the street humming the finale of the Second Symphony...or the Fourth Symphony...or the Seventh Symphony... Aside from Ode to Joy, what is the "best" melody by Beethoven? The finale of the Sixth? The Prometheus/Eroica tune? The slow movement of the quartet Op. 59 No. 1?
Quote from: Todd on February 28, 2023, 01:15:02 PMThe Tempo Di Menuetto from 49/2 and the Septet comes immediately to mind.
Quote from: Jo498 on February 28, 2023, 11:14:00 PMI don't know how quickly Rossini's popularity faded in the mid-19th century. Very probably his operas were far more popular than Fidelio until the mid-19th century. But I was not talking about this but about the whole last 200 years and that Fidelio has been a standard repertoire piece for a very long time. Regardless of Rossini being more popular for a few decades it was not a failure but overall it seems one of the most successful operas by "non-opera composers".
Quote from: lordlance on February 27, 2023, 10:14:38 PMUnlike the Baroque and Romantic-onward eras, I feel like Beethoven didn't really have any truly great contemporaries (of course I am not including Haydn, Mozart, Schubert or Rossini.) Schumann or Mahler - they had so many other great fellow composers who wrote beautiful music. Beethoven's genius seems even more magnified when I hear his contemporaries. The music's tunes simply aren't memorable. The music does not stay with me. I have heard Hummel's piano concertos, Ries' symphonies and piano concertos and Spohr's symphonies. They don't seem to really hold a candle to Beethoven's works.What is your view on Beethoven's contemporaries? Which orchestral pieces would you recommend to me to change my view?
Quote from: Daverz on March 01, 2023, 05:52:24 AMMehul stands out as one of the more interesting (4 symphonies and some opera overtures). Of slightly younger composers, the name Cartellieri stands out for some very enjoyable symphonies and concertos.Of the much younger proto-Romantics, don't forget Kalliwoda.
Quote from: lordlance on March 01, 2023, 07:11:02 PMAnd yes Rossini or Cherubini may well have written great vocal music in which case, my question might be contemporaries of Beethoven who wrote great orchestral music. Again, in the Romantic era (and I suppose baroque too) there's no shortage of great composers for orchestral music.
Quote from: amw on March 01, 2023, 07:50:14 PMhe identified with and celebrated the ideals of the French Revolution, at least early in his life, to the point where his most famous symphony openly quotes at least two revolutionary hymns;
Quote from: amw on March 01, 2023, 07:50:14 PMThe public orchestral concert did not really exist as a phenomenon until the ~1800s. Prior to Beethoven, composers generally only wrote orchestral music if they were employed to do so as a Kapellmeister or equivalent position, or by commission by a particular patron if they were exceptionally famous. As late as the 1820s orchestral music was still mainly the province of the aristocracy, while the bourgeoisie and petit-bourgeoisie who made up the majority of concert audiences primarily attended the opera on a periodic basis, with orchestral concerts being something put on primarily by famous composers or virtuosos using pick-up bands or the house band of the local nobleman or opera house (e.g., the concerts for which Haydn composed the 'Paris' and 'London' Symphonies, or those organised by a group of Beethoven's patrons to present all of his symphonies).As such, before the Romantic era, orchestral music largely had an occasional character and was not a particularly serious discipline. Symphonies and overtures often used music derived from operas, ballets or stage plays or were short in length. There are various reasons this changed: the immense popularity of Haydn and Mozart's symphonies and concertos; the view in revolutionary France that the symphony was a more egalitarian public art form than the opera, promoted by figures like Méhul and Gossec; increasing levels of instrumental virtuosity and performance quality; an increasing prestige attached to instrumental music more generally, as a growing petit bourgeoisie across Europe began purchasing pianos and other musical instruments for use in their homes to signify their new social status.Beethoven was somewhat of an outlier in his preference for symphony over opera, and developed this preference for several reasons: like Mozart he was never able to secure a permanent Kapellmeister position, instead rising to fame as an instrumental virtuoso and child prodigy; to a much greater extent than Mozart, he identified with and celebrated the ideals of the French Revolution, at least early in his life, to the point where his most famous symphony openly quotes at least two revolutionary hymns; finally, he developed a somewhat one-sided rivalry with Rossini (Rossini is not known to have ever commented one way or another on Beethoven's work) partly as a result of widespread public comparing and contrasting of the two as the greatest composers of the age, which led him to profess distaste for most of the popular operatic composers of the day and therefore cemented the idea of the symphony as an equal and opposite competitor to the opera in the minds of the public.The public orchestral concert as we know it developed largely after Beethoven's death, primarily due to the influence of Mendelssohn. Berlioz, Liszt and Schumann also contributed greatly to the development of orchestral music as a genre. That said, orchestral music did not fully equal or exceed the prestige of opera until the 1860s-1870s, with the symphonies and symphonic poems of Brahms, Bruckner, Dvořák, Tchaikovsky, and their contemporaries. The vast majority of the large number of "great composers of orchestral music" in the Romantic era composed the bulk of their orchestral music after 1870.There was also a large amount of great orchestral music in the Baroque era but the definition of "orchestra" was quite different. An orchestra generally meant any ensemble larger than a trio or quartet—for example, Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No. 6 is for seven players, and there are a number of Vivaldi string concertos for five players. Extra musicians, where available, could double up on the parts, but ensembles we'd recognise as "orchestras" (with players in sections) appear only rarely and become more common towards the middle of the 18th century.
Quote from: amw on March 01, 2023, 07:50:14 PMRossini is not known to have ever commented one way or another on Beethoven's work
Quote from: RossiniI take Beethoven twice a week, Haydn four times, and Mozart every day. You will tell me that Beethoven is a Colossus who often gives you a dig in the ribs, whilst Mozart is always adorable; it is that the latter had the chance of going very young to Italy, at a time when they still sang well.
Quote from: RossiniThe Germans have always been the greatest harmonists, and the Italians the greatest melodists. But from the moment that the North produced a Mozart, we of the South were beaten on our own ground, because this man rises above all nations, uniting in himself the charm of Italian melody and all the profundity of German harmony. He is the only musician who had as much knowledge as genius, and as much genius as knowledge.
Quote from: Florestan on March 01, 2023, 01:39:33 AMAccording to Operabase.com, between March 1, 2020 and March 1, 2023 Fidelio had 580+ performances worldwide, while Il Barbiere di Siviglia had 2040+. Looks like in the early 21st century Rossini's popularity in the operatic world is still greater than Beethoven's by a ratio of about 4 to 1. I rest my case for good.
Quote from: amw on March 01, 2023, 07:50:14 PMThe public orchestral concert did not really exist as a phenomenon until the ~1800s. Prior to Beethoven, composers generally only wrote orchestral music if they were employed to do so as a Kapellmeister or equivalent position, or by commission by a particular patron if they were exceptionally famous. As late as the 1820s orchestral music was still mainly the province of the [...]Beethoven was somewhat of an outlier in his preference for symphony over opera, and developed this
Quote from: Jo498 on March 02, 2023, 10:09:06 AMBut Haydn was already such an outlier; he wrote an opera for London but 13 symphonies for orchestral concerts
Quote from: Jo498 on March 02, 2023, 10:09:06 AMThen we have at least four more without significant operas before 1850: Chopin, Liszt, Mendelssohn, Schumann.
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