Wagnerian "Gesamtkunstwerk" vs opera

Started by vers la flamme, April 11, 2023, 11:43:47 AM

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vers la flamme

Hi, I thought I would ask the Opera subforum about this question I'm curious about, as I expect you all know much more than I do about the subject, which is practically nothing.

I've read several times that the Wagnerian ideal of total synthesis of music and drama was most acutely realized in Das Rheingold and Die Walküre, only to see a regression to the more conventionally operatic style in Siegfried and Götterdämmerung, as well as Parsifal. (I seem to recall an attribution of this idea to the writings of Bernard Shaw on Wagner.) If this is true, why? I'm asking as someone who has heard the Ring cycle in full only once and in parts not much more than that, but to me, I didn't seem to note any major stylistic differences between the first and second halves of the cycle (other than to note that my favorite of them was definitely Walküre, though I couldn't tell you quite why).

Thanks!

Lisztianwagner

#1
I haven't read Shaw's essay, but it's true there's a little difference among the operas of the Ring Cycle, whose composition was frequently interrupted by Wagner (who created Tristan and Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg between the two halves of Der Ring) and took a long time to be fully completed (1853-1874); about the music, Wagner's composing style evolved during the time gap, the second half of the cycle has a more complex harmony with a continuous fragmentation of the thematic material, abundance of free dissonances and a more exasperated chromaticism; leitmotives are developed and transformed into impressive combinations that seem to be able to modulate in any directions. The first half (as well as the first act of Siegfried) is more balanced between symphonic part and singing, and with a more tonal stability; not that this means it is not modern, quite the contrary, but not as advanced in harmonic experiments as the other. Instead, about the poetical writing, the texts of Siegfried and Götterdämmerung were written before Das Rheingold and Die Walküre, as Wagner started the creation from the last part and worked backwards towards the prologue; as a matter of fact, the original titles of the last two operas were Der junge Siegfried and Siegfrieds Tod, and especially in Götterdämmerung it can be seen a use of some more conventional operatic forms (the big choruses and the Gunther-Brunnhild-Hagen trio in the second act, for example).
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

Jo498

There are several ways how that synthesis can be achieved.
I don't think that the distance or difference with more "conventional" opera is the core criterion.

There are several elements here. E.g. the use of leitmotives and (not directly related) the breaking up of more traditional "numbers", i.e. the "infinite melody", or maybe rather "infinite accompanied recitative". The most "conversational" is probably Rheingold, the piece most often mentioned for "infinite melody" is Tristan.

Then there is the "symphonic density" mentioned above, usually also concerning transformation and combination of motives. This one seems clearly more advanced in Siegfried and Götterdämmerung. In the accompanying leitmotiv disc for the Solti Ring by Cooke the paradigm for advanced use/combination of motives is the Act 3 prelude in Siegfried, IIRC.

Meistersinger, for instance, has more separable "traditional numbers" but it has also brilliant polyphony of the motives, so is this a "step back" or just a different way to achieve the synthesis. Because it is a different piece.
Meistersinger also has the prize quotation on "form in art" when Walther asks "Wie fang ich nach der Regel an?" (How should I begin according to the rule?) and Sachs answers: "Ihr stellt sie selbst und folgt ihr dann." (You set down the rule yourself but then follow it).
I think Wagner applied this maxim himself, therefore using slightly different ways of achieving unity and dramatic coherence.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Florestan

#3
Wagner dragged opera into a quagmire out of which it hasn't been lifted ever since.  ;D

(runs for cover --- and yes, I know: O ciel, che noia!, a quote which by itself speaks volumes on the topic...)
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

ritter

Quote from: Florestan on April 12, 2023, 08:40:07 AMWagner dragged opera into a quagmire out of which it hasn't been lifted ever since.  ;D

(runs for cover --- and yes, I know: O ciel, che noia!, a quote which by itself speaks volumes on the topic...)
O ciel, che noia!!!!!

JBS

Quote from: Florestan on April 12, 2023, 08:40:07 AMWagner dragged opera into a quagmire out of which it hasn't been lifted ever since.  ;D

(runs for cover --- and yes, I know: O ciel, che noia!, a quote which by itself speaks volumes on the topic...)

Trying to decide between Donner's hammer and Nothung as the exemplary vessel of punishment.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Brahmsian

Quote from: Florestan on April 12, 2023, 08:40:07 AMWagner dragged opera into a quagmire out of which it hasn't been lifted ever since.  ;D


Wagner elevated opera to a level that has yet to be matched or surpassed since.  :)  There, a quick edit was all that was required.  ;)  8)

Lisztianwagner

Quote from: OrchestralNut on April 12, 2023, 10:53:06 AMWagner elevated opera to a level that has yet to be matched or surpassed since.  :)  There, a quick edit was all that was required.  ;)  8)
Das nenn' ich ein Wort! ;D
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

Florestan

Quote from: JBS on April 12, 2023, 10:49:56 AMTrying to decide between Donner's hammer and Nothung as the exemplary vessel of punishment.

Ohime! Che gran tormento mi aspetta ogni momento... Pieta, signori!

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Brahmsian

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 12, 2023, 11:01:33 AMDas nenn' ich ein Wort! ;D

Hmm, I tried internet translation, but it wasn't coming up with anything concrete?  :D

Florestan

Quote from: OrchestralNut on April 12, 2023, 11:17:54 AMHmm, I tried internet translation, but it wasn't coming up with anything concrete?  :D

I guess it's Wagner's convoluted pseudo-alt Deutsch for "+1".  ;D
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Brahmsian

Quote from: Florestan on April 12, 2023, 11:22:03 AMI guess it's Wagner's convoluted pseudo-alt Deutsch.  ;D

Hmm, we either need Siegfried's Nothung or Sarge's bazooka!   ;D

Florestan

Quote from: OrchestralNut on April 12, 2023, 11:23:42 AMHmm, we either need Siegfried's Nothung or Sarge's bazooka!   ;D

See my edit, Ray.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Brahmsian


Lisztianwagner

#14
Quote from: OrchestralNut on April 12, 2023, 11:17:54 AMHmm, I tried internet translation, but it wasn't coming up with anything concrete?  :D
Quote from: Florestan on April 12, 2023, 11:22:03 AMI guess it's Wagner's convoluted pseudo-alt Deutsch for "+1".  ;D
No, it's Wagner's sublime German poetry!  >:D ;D

Joking aside, yes, it's from the first act of Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg, it should be: "That was some word!"

But it would be better to stop, we're now going far from the original argument of the thread....
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

Florestan

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 12, 2023, 11:36:06 AMNo, it's Wagner's sublime German poetry!  >:D ;D

Joking aside, yes, it's from the first act of Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg, it should be: "That was some word!"

Something like literraly "This is what I call a word"?
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Florestan

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 12, 2023, 11:36:06 AMBut it would be better to stop, we're now going far from the original argument of the thread....

Agreed, sorry for the derailment, carry on, folks.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Lisztianwagner

Quote from: Florestan on April 12, 2023, 11:41:57 AMSomething like literraly "This is what I call a word"?
Very literally, yes, indeed.
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

Florestan

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini