Werther, Faust, Wilhelm Tell

[Florestan]

I find it rather odd that the most famous musical settings of these three classic works of German literature are French and Italian. One should have expected German composers, especially Romantic ones, to vie with each other in the field, but apart from Schumann's Szenen aus Goethes Faust, Spohr's Faust (which I doubt that many people have listened to)  and Carl Eberwein's stage music (which I doubt many people have heard of) Faust is conspicuously absent from German 19th century music. As for Werther, apart from Massenet's opera I am aware of only one other musical setting, a melodrama by Gaetano Pugnani (yet another Italian, go figure!). Tell's case is even more striking, Rossini's grand opera being the only musical setting I'm aware of.

What are the reasons for this anomaly, in your opinion? Why would Frenchmen and Italians apparently be more concerned with, and inspired by, masterpieces of German literature than the Germans themselves? (Now thaat I think of it, another famous musical setting of a Goethe theme is Ambroise Thomas's Mignon.)

[Jo498]

I've read the suggestion that German composers were afraid/too respectful of Faust, thus few operas. I have never heard Spohr's Faust, but I think it was quite popular during the 19th century.
Not quite sure how highly Werther was regarded in the 19th century. It was a huge success when it came out (although the reports about a "suicide fad" were probably exaggerated) and it was still required reading in my school days in the late 1980s but apart from the basic love triangle it's not really operatic. It's in letters to a friend and a bit sprawling.

The argument could be applied to all the great Schiller dramas as well, most of which have been turned into operas (although in the case of Jeanne d'Arc the opera is probably based on the same subject, less on Schiller) but all are by Italians: I Masnadieri, Luisa Miller, Don Carlo, Guillaume Tell (although the Ur-Swiss in Tell are German speaking, it's fitting for Switzerland to have an opera in French by an Italian based on a drama by a German).
Again, I am not sure but I can imagine that the treatment of these subjects by Schiller was deemed definitive, so any opera would have spoiled (or at least not improved) a national treasure.

Also, as we know, the greatest German opera composer in the 19th century had a bit of an ego and would not have been willing to share fame with the greatest German poets and dramatists before him by using their plays as basis for operas.

[Florestan]

(although the Ur-Swiss in Tell are German speaking, it's fitting for Switzerland to have an opera in French by an Italian based on a drama by a German).

Also, as we know, the greatest German opera composer in the 19th century had a bit of an ego and would not have been willing to share fame with the greatest German poets and dramatists before him by using their plays as basis for operas.

Very good points. 😂

[Mandryka]

The most famous Faust is Busoni's, which is German.

[Florestan]

The most famous Faust is Busoni's, which is German.

The most famous for whom? When was the last time it was staged or recorded?

[Mandryka]

The most famous for whom?

Everyone

When was the last time it was staged or recorded?

6 weeks ago in Florence.

[Florestan]

Everyone 

Really? I'm pretty sure that the average opera fan has heard Gounod's at least once and never heard of Busoni's.

[Florestan]

6 weeks ago in Florence.

Good for them Florentines.

[Luke]

The most famous Faust is obviously Havergal Brian's 

Werther, and all its associated imagery, haunts German Romanticism, either directly (as in the Brahms C minor Piano Quartet) or indirectly. It may not have been put on the stage, but its influence was there nonetheless.

[Florestan]

The most famous Faust is obviously Havergal Brian's 

Werther, and all its associated imagery, haunts German Romanticism, either directly (as in the Brahms C minor Piano Quartet) or indirectly. It may not have been put on the stage, but its influence was there nonetheless.

Well, in case it wasn't obvious from my OP, I'm talking about vocal stage music only. When it comes to purely instrumental/orchestral music, besides Brahms there's also Liszt.

[JBS]

I have a recording of Spohr's Faust. I've listened to it once, remember only that it didn't strike me as being anything other than average.

We should include Mahler here, because of the 8th Symphony.

[Florestan]

I have a recording of Spohr's Faust. I've listened to it once, remember only that it didn't strike me as being anything other than average.

We should include Mahler here, because of the 8th Symphony.

+ 1 on both counts.

[JBS]

Mapman's post in WAYLT2 reminded me that the Egmont for which Beethoven wrote his overture and incidental music was a Goethe play.

Was Mendelssohn's Walpurgisnacht drawn from/inspired by the Walpurgis scenes in Faust, or merely drew on the same legends/traditions Goethe made use of?

[Mapman]

Mapman's post in WAYLT2 reminded me that the Egmont for which Beethoven wrote his overture and incidental music was a Goethe play.

Was Mendelssohn's Walpurgisnacht drawn from/inspired by the Walpurgis scenes in Faust, or merely drew on the same legends/traditions Goethe made use of?

According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_erste_Walpurgisnacht), Mendelssohn's work is a setting of Goethe. It seems unrelated to Faust.

(Walpurgisnacht is the evening of April 30th. I think I know what I'll listen to on Sunday night! I know that Dave Hurwitz recommends it, and I've never heard it.)

[Jo498]

"Die erste Walpurgisnacht" is unrelated to Faust (that has an even more bizarre "classical Walpurgisnacht" with monsters from classical antiquity in the symbolically overloaded 2nd part). It makes a connection between christianization and the hidden survival of pagan practices in the form of the witches sabbath (connected with different dates, usually before the 1st of May but sometimes also midsummer/St.John). This was apparently already popular at Goethe's time but AFAIK mostly debunked by more recent research. ("The rest is history" podcast had a bit about that a year or two ago, late medieval witchcraft is "Christian", i.e. based on christian metaphysics and mythology, not on remnants of local Germanic/Celtic paganism almost 1000 years earlier).

Anyway, if one looks at 19th century German opera they, like Wagner, mostly used subjects from older folklore, medieval history, legends, mythology etc. rather than comparably recent dramas by famous German writers. (This is of course in line with general German romanticism that shows a bit already in Werther who reads Ossian (the fake Celtic bard) and Homer depending on his mood, i.e. OLD stuff.)

Weber has the folksy ghost story Freischütz (that is supposedly set in the late 17th century but later on was usually staged more as an early 19th century setting) and medieval settings in Euryanthe and Oberon. Marschner has The Vampyre, a then current ghost story and some medieval subjects. Lortzing used mostly folksy stuff, either fairy tale (Undine), historical (Zar und Zimmermann with Peter of Russia incognito in Holland) or contemporary comedy (Wildschütz), Nicolai and Goetz used Shakespeare comedies, Humperdinck and Siegfried Wagner fairy tales and medieval history.

[VonStupp]

Mapman's post in WAYLT2 reminded me that the Egmont for which Beethoven wrote his overture and incidental music was a Goethe play.

This also reminds me of Beethoven's setting of Song of the Flea; from Faust I believe. Not a song I really like - give me Mussorgsky's any day.
VS

[Florestan]

Anyway, if one looks at 19th century German opera they, like Wagner, mostly used subjects from older folklore, medieval history, legends, mythology etc. rather than comparably recent dramas by famous German writers. (This is of course in line with general German romanticism that shows a bit already in Werther who reads Ossian (the fake Celtic bard) and Homer depending on his mood, i.e. OLD stuff.)

Yes, but it begs the question: why? After all, German Romanticism was heavily nationalist and what better way to celebrate and promote German culture than Goethe and Schiller, the brightest German luminaries of the epoch? But then again, German Romanticism was the wildest and fanciest of them all and looking for reason in it is an exercise in futility.

[Jo498]

It does make sense as despite some "Sturm und Drang" pieces Goethe and Schiller were not romantics. They were called "Weimarer Klassik" afterwards and there is a clear change in style, mood etc. in the early 19th century. Goethe was still alive and active, of course, but he was shocked by some of the newer generation of writers, IIRC by the tragic figure of Heinrich von Kleist (who shot himself + gf at an early age) and the general "lack of restraint" of the Romantics. Goethe and Schiller might also have been a bit too "cosmopolitan" for the national roots the Romantics were looking for. Therefore these medieval, fairy tale or folklore subjects, I'd guess.

[Florestan]

It does make sense as despite some "Sturm und Drang" pieces Goethe and Schiller were not romantics. They were called "Weimarer Klassik" afterwards and there is a clear change in style, mood etc. in the early 19th century. Goethe was still alive and active, of course, but he was shocked by some of the newer generation of writers, IIRC by the tragic figure of Heinrich von Kleist (who shot himself + gf at an early age) and the general "lack of restraint" of the Romantics. Goethe and Schiller might also have been a bit too "cosmopolitan" for the national roots the Romantics were looking for. Therefore these medieval, fairy tale or folklore subjects, I'd guess.

Yes, agreed. In spite of Werther, which was a mere péché de jeunesse, Goethe was essentially anti-Romantic and anti-nationalist, and so was Schiller who, AFAIK, didn't even have his péché de jeunesse. FWIW, I think Goethe's diagnosis and indictment of Romanticism was correct.