Rossini right or wrong on Wagner?

[Owen David]

Mr. Wagner has beautiful moments but bad quarters of an hour.

Was Rossini right or wrong?

[david johnson]

chuckle...  Most all composers do that.

[Wendell_E]

Of course, Rossini should have started out with "IMHO".

[Florestan]

Mr. Wagner has beautiful moments but bad quarters of an hour.

Was Rossini right or wrong?

Ask my avatar. 

He also said with respect to Lohengrin: One can't judge [it] after a first hearing, and I certainly don't intend to hear it a second time.

My favorite bon mot about Wagner is by David Randolph, though: Parsifal is the kind of opera that starts at six o'clock and after it has been going for three hours, you look at your watch and it says 6.20.

[DavidW]

Mr. Wagner has beautiful moments but bad quarters of an hour.

Was Rossini right or wrong?

Dead wrong.  So many jealous composers back then...

[(poco) Sforzando]

Everyone says Wagner should be cut. Problem is, nobody ever says what passages.

[Lisztianwagner]

Dead wrong.  So many jealous composers back then...

Completely agree, since Der fliegende Holländer, everything Wagner composed was masterful.

[Florestan]

Everyone says Wagner should be cut. Problem is, nobody ever says what passages.

I'd say, for works prior to The Ring, cut everything right after the overture. For the Ring, cut everything save the purely orchestral numbers. 

[Florestan]

So many jealous composers back then...

Wagner first and foremost, with his almost pathological jealousy of Mendelssohn and Meyerbeer. 

Rossini, otoh, was the most successful and celebrated operatic composer of the first half of the 19C, retired in full glory and enjoying a luxurious, hedonistic lifestyle. He had zero reasons to be jealous of Wagner. 

[ritter]

Wagner first and foremost, with his almost pathological jealousy of Mendelssohn and Meyerbeer. 

Rossini, otoh, was the most successful and celebrated operatic composer of the first half of the 19C, retired in full glory and enjoying a luxurious, hedonistic lifestyle. He had zero reasons to be jealous of Wagner. 

O ciel, che noia!

Good evening, Andrei.

[Jo498]

So he was only wrong, not jealous.

I doubt that Rossini listened to the "real Wagner", i.e. Tristan and later as this was at the end of Rossini's life or later.
Does anyone know if a particular work prompted that remark? Probably Tannhäuser?

[(poco) Sforzando]

I'd say, for works prior to The Ring, cut everything right after the overture. For the Ring, cut everything save the purely orchestral numbers. 

So you'd take the Forest Murmurs from Siegfried over Hagen's call to the vassals or Brünnhilde's immolation?

And do Meistersinger, Parsifal, and Tristan get a pass, or are they too to be reduced to their preludes?

[Owen David]

Everyone says Wagner should be cut. Problem is, nobody ever says what passages.

Well they always cut Hamlet and no one seems to mind. I've never of a theatregoer demanding a refund on their ticket for not getting the full monty.

[Owen David]

These two seem even more critical than Rossini:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG6UllZwj9c

(At 02:04)

[Owen David]

Ask my avatar. 

He also said with respect to Lohengrin: One can't judge [it] after a first hearing, and I certainly don't intend to hear it a second time.

My favorite bon mot about Wagner is by David Randolph, though: Parsifal is the kind of opera that starts at six o'clock and after it has been going for three hours, you look at your watch and it says 6.20.

Good one! I've definitely experienced that sort of thing with some plays!

[(poco) Sforzando]

Well they always cut Hamlet and no one seems to mind. I've never of a theatregoer demanding a refund on their ticket for not getting the full monty.

False analogy between verbal and musical structures. And you haven't told me what passages in Wagner's works you'd cut.

[Owen David]

False analogy between verbal and musical structures. And you haven't told me what passages in Wagner's works you'd cut.

Where did I say I wanted to cut passages in Wagner?  And my analogy was between revered artists not structures. So wrong on both counts.

[Wendell_E]

Everyone says Wagner should be cut. Problem is, nobody ever says what passages.

Cuts in Wagner used to be common, as you can hear many in old broadcasts from the Met and elsewhere. The first U.S. performances of Götterdämmerung at the Met, cut the scenes (and obviously the roles) of the Norns, Waltraute, and Alberich. When Simon Rattle conducted Tristan at the Met in 2016, they made a cut in Act II, not long after Tristan's entrance. Even at Bayreuth, Wieland Wagner (and Karl Böhm) cut Gutrune's solo scene in Act III of Götterdämmerung, but restored it the next summer.

I prefer my Wagner uncut.

[Jo498]

There are common "stage cuts" in Tristan, Act II, parts (about 10min or so) of the long love duet. AFAIK done at least partly to leave the singers some strength for the last act (Isolde has a longer rest before the end, but Tristan obviously not)

[Wendell_E]

There are common "stage cuts" in Tristan, Act II, parts (about 10min or so) of the long love duet. AFAIK done at least partly to leave the singers some strength for the last act (Isolde has a longer rest before the end, but Tristan obviously not)

I've also heard cuts in Act III, to spare Tristan, both broadcasts with Melchior and a 1971 broadcast with Jess Thomas.