Can J.S Bach be considered a religious composer? Hell, no.

[MISHUGINA]

According to the debate I have to prepare in History of Baroque Music class. That is something like denying Wagner was ever an anti-Semite. Can some music scholars here give me some hints on how to make a convincing argument out of this title?

[david johnson]

the premise is a bit silly.  who came up with it?  it can require research of you, which is good, but that's about it.  tell the prof you'll do his assignment, but he won't get very far asking someone to reinvent the wheel concerning bach.

dj

[val]

I am not a scholar, at least no more, but I think there are some arguments regarding the fact that Bach was a religious composer:

Almost 200 Cantatas (there were performed during the Lutheran cult)

The Two Passions, The Mass (although catholic), the Magnificat, the Motets, The Oratorio of Christmas.

The Chorals he composed for organ. The Lutheran Mass.

His all life as man and musician.


Regarding your statement that Wagner was anti-semite ... do you mean that he was anti-semite as composer? Or just as a man? You know, he was also vegetarian. But I don't think he was a vegetarian composer.

[Harry]

the premise is a bit silly.  who came up with it?  it can require research of you, which is good, but that's about it.  tell the prof you'll do his assignment, but he won't get very far asking someone to reinvent the wheel concerning bach.

dj

I would say the same, reinvent the wheel again?
Nah!

[Mark]

Put it this way. John Rutter writes a lot of 'religious' music. But he claims not to be religious himself. Was Bach a little like this? Could an argument be constructed along those lines?

Just thinking aloud. I'm no academic.

[Grazioso]

Put it this way. John Rutter writes a lot of 'religious' music. But he claims not to be religious himself. Was Bach a little like this? Could an argument be constructed along those lines?

Just thinking aloud. I'm no academic.

What someone writes because the job or the times expect it of him doesn't necessarily reflect his personal values.

[Novi]

Do you have to argue that he's not a religious composer ?

Can you do a sly one and twist the debate into a discussion of whether music of itself can be religious? So the question becomes not only whether J. S. can be considered a religious composer but what we understand by religious music. That religious associations are not intrinsic to the notes on the page, that meaning in music is culturally conceived, blah, blah, blah ... still, it's all a bit tenuous though.

 

[Mark]

What someone writes because the job or the times expect it of him doesn't necessarily reflect his personal values.

Yes, I think that was my point.

[Grazioso]

Do you have to argue that he's not a religious composer ?

Can you do a sly one and twist the debate into a discussion of whether music of itself can be religious? So the question becomes not only whether J. S. can be considered a religious composer but what we understand by religious music. That religious associations are not intrinsic to the notes on the page, that meaning in music is culturally conceived, blah, blah, blah ... still, it's all a bit tenuous though.

 

"Secular" pieces like a Bruckner symphony might strike some listeners as more "religious" or "spiritual" (terms loaded with baggage, I know) than an explicitly religious piece of music like a mass.

[Josquin des Prez]

His use of strict polyphony is a big give away. In the old days, people believed that counterpoint was a way of imitating nature, thus glorifying the creator. This is why even after the introduction of homophony composers still wrote in parts when dealing with religious music. Bach himself was quoted saying that he always strove for harmonic perfection as a way to pay homage to god.

I think it's well documented that Bach had strong religious believes anyway, his music merely complements that.

[karlhenning]

Put it this way. John Rutter writes a lot of 'religious' music. But he claims not to be religious himself. Was Bach a little like this? Could an argument be constructed along those lines?

Just thinking aloud. I'm no academic.

I don't know if this will have any purchase with Bach. But of course, closer to our own day, Vaughan Williams, who wrote much beautiful church music, and indeed did the Church of England great musical service by his professionalism and sensitivity in the task of editing The English Hymnal, was famously an agnostic.

[Mark G. Simon]

Bach's Bible still exists, and it is heavily annotated in the composer's hand. He clearly spent a lot of time studying it.

[Shrunk]

What someone writes because the job or the times expect it of him doesn't necessarily reflect his personal values.

Richard Dawkins was once asked if the existence of religion could be justified  by the amount of great art it had inspired.  His reponse (I'm paraphrasing here) was, "Well, artists have to go where the money is.  We'll never know what would have happened if Michelangelo had painted the ceiling of the Museum of Science, or what Handel's 'Jurassic Oratorio' might have sounded like."

From the little I know of Bach's life, his religious beliefs were sincere.  Still, it could perhaps be argued that his religious works were composed on commission and did not necessarily reflect his personal beliefs.

[Larry Rinkel]

I don't know if this will have any purchase with Bach. But of course, closer to our own day, Vaughan Williams, who wrote much beautiful church music, and indeed did the Church of England great musical service by his professionalism and sensitivity in the task of editing The English Hymnal, was famously an agnostic.

Verdi, despite his Requiem and Quattro Pezzi, was agnostic too. I'm afraid though that to argue Bach was not a religious composer is a losing proposition, at least as far as most of vocal works goes.

[Florestan]

Richard Dawkins was once asked if the existence of religion could be justified  by the amount of great art it had inspired.  His reponse (I'm paraphrasing here) was, "Well, artists have to go where the money is.  We'll never know what would have happened if Michelangelo had painted the ceiling of the Museum of Science, or what Handel's 'Jurassic Oratorio' might have sounded like."

This twisted logic could come only from Dawkins... 

It's hard to believe, for me at least, that works of art of such tremendous spiritual power as Michelangelo's Pieta or Handel's Messiah could have been created only for money, with no personal commitment from the artist.

JS Bach was a deeply religious man and his music reflects this fact.

[Cato]

According to the debate I have to prepare in History of Baroque Music class. That is something like denying Wagner was ever an anti-Semite. Can some music scholars here give me some hints on how to make a convincing argument out of this title?

Which university is involved in this?  Murem magnum olfacio!

Unless the professor has letters or diary entries or other EVIDENCE showing Bach as an atheist, agnostic, or even just an occasional despairing doubter, the "debate" is ridicklewockle!

It might allow people to fantasize with opinions based on no research or evidence, which is too often occuring in our modern universities...among the faculty.

[71 dB]

As if there was non-religious composers in the 18th century... 

[johnQpublic]

1) Stress his interest in writing educational pieces for his kids
2) His enjoyment in working with the Collegium Musicum
3) His desire to work outside the church like his Brandenburg Concerti being an attempt to be considered for a non-church post.

etc.

Good luck 

[greg]

According to the debate I have to prepare in History of Baroque Music class. That is something like denying Wagner was ever an anti-Semite. Can some music scholars here give me some hints on how to make a convincing argument out of this title?

that's pretty messed up, you'd have to break the rules completely just to get any type of argument.
"oh yeah, well not every single thing he wrote was religious, look at those Brandenburg concertos, how religious is that!? My definition of a religious composer is someone who never writes secular music at all."
and if they say, "Sure, but a composer has to have written a good amount of religious music to be considered religious and has to have been known as a religious person as we-"
"It's all an Illusionnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!"

[BachQ]

look at those Brandenburg concertos, how religious is that!?

I worship them .........