'Withdrawn' works which deserve to be heard

[vandermolen]

There are a number of compositions, initially withdrawn by their composer, which, in my view at least, deserve to be heard. Here are a few:

Samuel Barber: Symphony No.2 (I think this is a worthy successor to the fine 1st Symphony). Barber only allowed the central movement to be performed as a separate work 'Night Flight' (Barber served in the USAAF in WW2 and was also influenced by the writings of the French aviator Antoine de Saint Exupery)

Lars Erik Larsson: Symphony No.2 (I think that he withdrew all three)

Vaughan Williams: Piano Quintet

Vaughan Williams: Many sections, especially towards the end of the 1913/1920 version of A London Symphony (which the composer said sounded like 'a bad hymn'). Although the symphony itself was not withdrawn.

Any other suggestions?

[Irons]

There are a number of compositions, initially withdrawn by their composer, which, in my view at least, deserve to be heard. Here are a few:

Samuel Barber: Symphony No.2 (I think this is a worthy successor to the fine 1st Symphony). Barber only allowed the central movement to be performed as a separate work 'Night Flight' (Barber served in the USAAF in WW2 and was also influenced by the writings of the French aviator Antoine de Saint Exupery)

Lars Erik Larsson: Symphony No.2 (I think that he withdrew all three)

Vaughan Williams: Piano Quintet

Vaughan Williams: Many sections, especially towards the end of the 1913/1920 version of A London Symphony (which the composer said sounded like 'a bad hymn'). Although the symphony itself was not withdrawn.

Any other suggestions?

How odd! Not only performed, but Barber recorded his 2nd Symphony in England. After which he withdrew it. A footnote - Dedicated to the US Army Air Force.

[Roasted Swan]

Sibelius' Kullervo is work withdrawn by the composer that is pretty much part of the "standard canon" now.....

[vandermolen]

How odd! Not only performed, but Barber recorded his 2nd Symphony in England. After which he withdrew it. A footnote - Dedicated to the US Army Air Force.

Yes, you have that LP. I think that he was wrong to withdraw it.

[Lisztianwagner]

Sibelius' Kullervo is work withdrawn by the composer that is pretty much part of the "standard canon" now.....

Similar speech for Zemlinsky's Die Seejungfrau.

[vandermolen]

Sibelius' Kullervo is work withdrawn by the composer that is pretty much part of the "standard canon" now.....

Oh yes! Totally agree with this.

[vandermolen]

Similar speech for Zemlinsky's Die Seejungfrau.

I didn't know that Zemlinsky had withdrawn it! It's probably my favourite of his works. How interesting!

Elgar's 3rd Symphony (for different reasons) also comes to mind. Personally I'm very glad that it was not destroyed.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Samuel Barber: Symphony No.2 (I think this is a worthy successor to the fine 1st Symphony). Barber only allowed the central movement to be performed as a separate work 'Night Flight' (Barber served in the USAAF in WW2 and was also influenced by the writings of the French aviator Antoine de Saint Exupery)

According to Wiki, there was an understanding that the US Army would receive all of the royalties from it.  I wonder if that did happen and for how long and if that applied to his "Night Flight"?  Also curious as to who authorized its release?

PD

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I didn't know that Zemlinsky had withdrawn it! It's probably my favourite of his works. How interesting!

Elgar's 3rd Symphony (for different reasons) also comes to mind. Personally I'm very glad that it was not destroyed.

I didn't think that Elgar had ever finished his third?  My understanding is that Anthony Payne worked on creating one from sketches that Elgar had left when he died.  Or was there ever a complete one of the symphony which "disappeared"?

PD

[relm1]

I don't know if this qualifies but George Rochberg's original version of the violin concerto is superior to published version.  He got rid of 10 or so minutes and revised it to be more practical but the original is more sweeping and symphonic in scale.

[relm1]

I didn't think that Elgar had ever finished his third?  My understanding is that Anthony Payne worked on creating one from sketches that Elgar had left when he died.  Or was there ever a complete one of the symphony which "disappeared"?

PD

According to Wiki, Elgar left 130 pages of sketches of the 3rd which Payne spent years on completing it in 1997, officially known as "Edward Elgar: the sketches for Symphony No 3 elaborated by Anthony Payne" or in brief "Elgar/Payne Symphony No 3".  I looked through the sketches and they range from full score to piano score to sketches and then fragments.  Attached is an example from the Adagio.  About half the sketches are at this level of completion.  One of the challenges Payne would have is that these might not be linear or it might be multiple versions of ideas and the composer in their process hasn't decided which to use.  Clearly judgements are made and some of the gaps have to be composed. 

I think this is in worse shape than Mahler's 10th which has two and a half movements in full score but the whole thing in draft.  So all the hundreds of versions of it still line up with every bar Mahler wrote but the harmony, dynamics, ornamentation, instrumentation and sometimes accompaniment might vary.  With Elgar/Payne 3, you can image that material had to be invented to connect or develop ideas but again, some of it is fully flushed out.  I would describe this as Payne writing in the style of late Elgar to complete a possible interpretation (approximation) of what Elgar might have done. 

I think other interesting examples are Havergal Brian's Vision of Cleopatra.  The full score was lost but the vocal score survived and includes a piano reduction of the full score.  From that piano reduction, composer John Pickard recreated a full score in the distinctive style of early Havergal Brian to create a performing edition.  It is not Brian's original but uses the music Brian composed and was orchestrated in that contemporariness style.  The same might be done with what Brian considered to be his masterpiece, the lost four hour long setting of Percy Shelley's Prometheus Unbound.  Similarly, the full score was lost but the vocal score with piano reduction survives. 

[vandermolen]

I didn't think that Elgar had ever finished his third?  My understanding is that Anthony Payne worked on creating one from sketches that Elgar had left when he died.  Or was there ever a complete one of the symphony which "disappeared"?

PD

No - you are quite right PD.

[vandermolen]

I don't know if this qualifies but George Rochberg's original version of the violin concerto is superior to published version.  He got rid of 10 or so minutes and revised it to be more practical but the original is more sweeping and symphonic in scale.

I think that qualifies 

[vandermolen]

According to Wiki, Elgar left 130 pages of sketches of the 3rd which Payne spent years on completing it in 1997, officially known as "Edward Elgar: the sketches for Symphony No 3 elaborated by Anthony Payne" or in brief "Elgar/Payne Symphony No 3".  I looked through the sketches and they range from full score to piano score to sketches and then fragments.  Attached is an example from the Adagio.  About half the sketches are of this level of completion.  One of the challenges Payne would have is that these might not be linear or it might be multiple versions of ideas and the composer in their process hasn't decided which to use.  Clearly judgements are made and some of the gaps have to be composed.  I think this is in worse shape than Mahler's 10th which has two and a half movements in full score but the whole thing in draft.  So all the hundreds of versions of it still line up with every bar Mahler wrote but the harmony, dynamics, ornamentation, instrumentation and sometimes accompaniment might vary.  Here, you can image that material had to be invented to connect or develop ideas but again, some of it is fully flushed out. 

Most interesting - Thank you.

[Florestan]

Rachmaninoff - Symphony No. 1

[relm1]

I think the granddaddy of all withdrawn works that should have been heard is Sibelius No. 8...NOT the fragments originally marketed as fragments from that work!  It would have been an hour long choral symphony...a perfect bookend to Kullervo and as Sibelius described it, the culmination of his life's work as a composer.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

According to Wiki, Elgar left 130 pages of sketches of the 3rd which Payne spent years on completing it in 1997, officially known as "Edward Elgar: the sketches for Symphony No 3 elaborated by Anthony Payne" or in brief "Elgar/Payne Symphony No 3".  I looked through the sketches and they range from full score to piano score to sketches and then fragments.  Attached is an example from the Adagio.  About half the sketches are at this level of completion.  One of the challenges Payne would have is that these might not be linear or it might be multiple versions of ideas and the composer in their process hasn't decided which to use.  Clearly judgements are made and some of the gaps have to be composed. 

I think this is in worse shape than Mahler's 10th which has two and a half movements in full score but the whole thing in draft.  So all the hundreds of versions of it still line up with every bar Mahler wrote but the harmony, dynamics, ornamentation, instrumentation and sometimes accompaniment might vary.  With Elgar/Payne 3, you can image that material had to be invented to connect or develop ideas but again, some of it is fully flushed out.  I would describe this as Payne writing in the style of late Elgar to complete a possible interpretation (approximation) of what Elgar might have done. 

I think other interesting examples are Havergal Brian's Vision of Cleopatra.  The full score was lost but the vocal score survived and includes a piano reduction of the full score.  From that piano reduction, composer John Pickard recreated a full score in the distinctive style of early Havergal Brian to create a performing edition.  It is not Brian's original but uses the music Brian composed and was orchestrated in that contemporariness style.  The same might be done with what Brian considered to be his masterpiece, the lost four hour long setting of Percy Shelley's Prometheus Unbound.  Similarly, the full score was lost but the vocal score with piano reduction survives. 

Thank you! 

I think the granddaddy of all withdrawn works that should have been heard is Sibelius No. 8...NOT the fragments originally marketed as fragments from that work!  It would have been an hour long choral symphony...a perfect bookend to Kullervo and as Sibelius described it, the culmination of his life's work as a composer.

Was the Sibelius work actually "withdrawn"?  To me (and please correct me if I am wrong here) that means that the composer asked his publisher to stop printing it.  What criteria are we going by here ( @vandermolen)? 

PD

p.s.  And I just double-checked as I was thinking that Sibelius burned whatever he had written of it (according to Wiki, it says that his family said that he burned it in 1945--what he had written of it).  Why didn't he just dump it in the trash barrel for pickup--and then reach in late at night and pull it out--like the rest of us do?

[Lisztianwagner]

I didn't know that Zemlinsky had withdrawn it! It's probably my favourite of his works. How interesting!

Yes, Die Seejungfrau was very well received at the premiere (though rather overshadowed by the scandal of Schönberg's Pelleas und Melisande), but after few performances in Berlin and Prague, the composer withdrew the work and for many years after Zemlinsky's death the score was thought to be lost; Zemlinsky always championed the music of his contemporaries, but he was a poor champion of his own compositions. I agree that's a pity, Die Seejungfrau is a masterpiece.

[vandermolen]

Thank you! 
Was the Sibelius work actually "withdrawn"?  To me (and please correct me if I am wrong here) that means that the composer asked his publisher to stop printing it.  What criteria are we going by here ( @vandermolen)? 

PD

p.s.  And I just double-checked as I was thinking that Sibelius burned whatever he had written of it (according to Wiki, it says that his family said that he burned it in 1945--what he had written of it).  Why didn't he just dump it in the trash barrel for pickup--and then reach in late at night and pull it out--like the rest of us do?

My original criteria was completed works (Barber's Symphony No.2. for example), which were subsequently withdrawn by the composer but I don't mind if others interpret it differently.

[relm1]

Thank you! 
Was the Sibelius work actually "withdrawn"?  To me (and please correct me if I am wrong here) that means that the composer asked his publisher to stop printing it.  What criteria are we going by here ( @vandermolen)? 

PD

p.s.  And I just double-checked as I was thinking that Sibelius burned whatever he had written of it (according to Wiki, it says that his family said that he burned it in 1945--what he had written of it).  Why didn't he just dump it in the trash barrel for pickup--and then reach in late at night and pull it out--like the rest of us do?

I take "withdrawn" to mean somewhere, somehow the work was pulled out of availability.  That might be because the creator of it rejected it or it was pulled by the publisher.  I'd also add in some cases the work was just lost and "withdrawn" from availability because it was destroyed or just lost. 

Sibelius was a manic depressive and alcoholic and was wrestling with his demons.  One of which was clearly self-doubt.  Need I say more?  He thought (most likely in a drunk or manic episode) it was garbage and not worth ever hearing.