Started by vers la flamme, July 24, 2023, 03:10:11 PM
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Quote from: hopefullytrusting on July 24, 2023, 08:26:13 AMI'll always find modernism more free, wild, and bombastic than postmodernism.Luigi Russolo's, futurist-laden, Intonarumoris (played live):https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BYPXAo1cOA4&pp=ygUNTHVpZ2kgUnVzc29sbw%3D%3D
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on July 24, 2023, 03:16:36 PMFor me, at least - and I will admit my schooling likely influences this - I view postmodernism, primarily, as focusing more on fragmentation and silence (but not silence as a dynamic, but silence as an aim).
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on July 24, 2023, 03:33:35 PMFor me, I think think one of the heights of postmodernism is Kurtag's Kafka Fragments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEjFN9uGwEI, but then I also think that Schoenberg's short, solo piano pieces are an excellent display of postmodernism, or pretty much Webern's entire output. Someone like Cage, I feel is closer to the experimental minimalists like La Monte Young (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59qHcvM5lrI).
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on July 24, 2023, 03:49:09 PMAs I noted earlier, it may be due to my schooling, but for me, someone like Hindemith or Reger feel more modernist to me, but I still feel that even they are lacking that sweeping sense of grandeur I associate with modernism. Like I view Berlioz as very modern in his ideas, but very romantic when it came to his music. Maybe Bruckner might fit that slot best for me, but I am on shaky grounds.
Quote from: Henk on July 24, 2023, 03:47:45 PMPostmodernism in music to me coincides with what Nietzsche called 'guilty music'. Just another perspective of many ones. I recognize the silent/fragmentation perspective too. Someone like Andriessen would fit into that or Ligeti, maybe less strictly though than the ones mentioned. I would say however that dissonance isn't the real point of distinction. It has to do with another sense of aesthetics, another soundscape breaking with conventional ones, beginning with, following from and after serialism. A different technique of composing, experimenting with it, postmodernism seems to be born by experimentation and stays in that kind of creativity. Other examples I think of are Aperghis, but more towards silence/fragmentation sense, Lachenmann, Scelsi and Sciarrino.
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on July 24, 2023, 04:14:01 PMI'm thinking that Bruckner might be my arch-modernist.You put it much better than I could with that second paragraph. That is exactly where I am at.Agreed, I mean any category system is useful only to a degree. I mean think of composers like Bach, Liszt, Schubert, and the list could go on and on, or pick someone "constricted" like Vincent D'Indy, and even there you'll find a pretty wide swath of genres. I think it is very rare to find someone who is consistent throughout their lives, unless they composed very little (which is not a knock, as many of the greatest authors ever only wrote one book).
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 24, 2023, 04:03:31 PMSorry, which slot would Bruckner fit? I have a very hard time placing him within any movement myself. Regarding Berlioz, I can agree with that, and I can agree with the assessment of Modernist music as possessing a sweeping sense of grandeur—like Modernist literature (especially things like Ulysses, The Waste Land etc)—something that places Modernism as a kind of continuation of Romanticism, or to paraphrase Jan Swafford, "Romanticism with the brakes cut". Then, I find Mahler to be almost an inverse: very Romantic in his ideas, and very (early) Modern in his music. Actually, I overall find it very difficult placing the vast majority of 20th century composers into any movement or school, beyond certain instances in which very obvious sweeping categories can be used, often based on compositional techniques (Serialism, Spectralism, Minimalism, Electroacoustic etc).
Quote from: Henk on July 24, 2023, 04:44:28 PMTo me it makes sense to distinguish a few influential composers of the 20th who affected greatly what came after them: Stravinsky, Boulez and Ligeti (as far as concerned Europe) and Bartok too, who breaks more with modernism than Stravinsky imo. From these music stayed what it is, music, whereas postmodernism sometimes seems to escape from music.
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 24, 2023, 05:04:41 PMI understand that certain composers who might be seen as postmoderns seemed to have affiliations with certain "anti-art" movements: like Ligeti who dabbled with the Fluxus movement, which inspired his Poème symphonique for 100 metronomes; and of course John Cage, possibly the key musical influence on that whole movement. Is this the kind of thing you had in mind by postmodernism escaping from music?
Quote from: Dictionary.coman art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms
Quote from: Dictionary.comthrough the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 25, 2023, 06:01:17 AMI think I would agree that the musics of Sciarrino, Lachenmann, and Scelsi (at least what little I have heard) has very little to do with the touchstones of previous music, things like melody, harmony, rhythm, development of motives etc. I'm not sure whether they have abandoned timbre or made it the key focus of their works. At least to take a piece like Lachenmann's first string quartet for example, I've heard it described as "musique concrète instrumentale", with the connotation that the sounds produced by the strings are sound objects, to be manipulated similarly to how a tape artist might mix and match sound effects recorded on magnetic tape (or in the present day, I suppose, digital audio, though I have yet to hear any digital musique concrète, maybe I should try and make some with Ableton ) rather than traditionally developed à la Beethoven or Schoenberg. As you say, presenting music in this manner may prove influential as it's an entirely new way to conceptualize and write music. That being said, I'm not entirely sure that this is an escape from music altogether. Lachenmann, Scelsi and Sciarrino do this, but...... arguable. Edit: I don't know which mod moved this discussion into its own thread, but good call, I thought about requesting as much.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 25, 2023, 09:44:32 AMPostmodernism seems to be used for recent polystylistic music. I started a thread on postmodernism ages ago here - probably full of crap.
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 25, 2023, 10:20:20 AMWould you consider, say, Alfred Schnittke a postmodern?
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on July 25, 2023, 10:05:40 PMAs a point of clarity, I view both Berlioz and Bruckner as modernist in their compositional orchestrations, but I feel musically that Berlioz is a romantic, but I do think, ultimately, that I find Bruckner more modernist than romantic.Interestingly, your second list of composers are part of what I'd call impressionism, which, I feel, predates modernism. Although, I feel Bartok does become modern to postmodern, and Stravinsky is completely context-dependent, as he freely moved from one phase to another, but I feel he is the most modern on that list, at least when he was in his neoclassical phase.
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