The influence of artists' ideologies or non-musical behaviors

[Karl Henning]

I recently read a new book, Monsters by Claire Dederer, that tackles this very subject of "problem" artists with complexity, wisdom, humility, and a willingness to see all sides. She actually starts with the example of Polanski, before moving on to many other so-called "monsters" past and present.

I couldn't possibly summarize all of Dederer's thoughts in this space - it really is one of my favorite books I've read in a long time - but some that were of value to me included:
(a) that we should be honest about the role our feelings and emotions play in our assessment of "problematic" artists;
(b) that it is fine to acknowledge the difference between monstrous behavior that does or does not affect how you perceive the art itself (e.g., I can listen to Saint-Saens without thinking about his personal behavior, but I find Woody Allen's Manhattan deeply creepy and uncomfortable, having knowledge of his real behavior);
(c) that a private consumer cannot really hold any such artist accountable, so the point of managing our own feelings is precisely that: managing our own feelings;
(d) that art critics who say "we feel this" or "we should feel this," with the royal "we," as if their own feelings are normal and right, are grandstanding; and
(e) that there really isn't a wrong answer except to be frustrated at the artists for making us think about these things in the first place.

Thank you.

[DavidW]

I've received a complaint, so I'll be moving this digression to another topic.  Stand by!

[DavidW]

Yes this thread came from the Beethoven piano sonatas thread.  Please post here to continue the discussion.

[AnotherSpin]

Oh, no, I will most definitely not go into discussing free will.

Agree, there is no point in discussing an issue where the sides positions will stay intakt.

But will say nonetheless, realising that people are not independent in their deeds makes life much easier. More compassion to others and oneselves.

[Florestan]

If you all are interested, perhaps the best book on free will has recently been published: Do we have free will?: A debate by Robert Kane and Carolina Sartorio.

What's the conclusion of the debate? Do we, or do we not? 

[AnotherSpin]

If you all are interested, perhaps the best book on free will has recently been published: Do we have free will?: A debate by Robert Kane and Carolina Sartorio.

Actually I have my answers in this, but thank you anyway 

[Florestan]

I'll spoil that one is for it and one is against it.

I suspected that much. 

Personally, I side with *for*.

[Jo498]

Levit did nothing worse than offensive and stupid public statements using his fame as pianist.
He was just insufferably obnoxious and knows of course that any hard counter can be deflected with the charge of antisemitism.
I would respect him more, if he was not mostly just echoing the juste milieu leftliberal crap but defending an original position. And if I loved his playing more, I'd probably not care.

Certainly, Pollini was a kind of salon? communist 50 years ago, but I never knew about this when I first encountered him on records in the 1980s. Maybe he was vocal in Italy, I don't know.

[Mandryka]

@Jo498 - what did he say that was stupid? I can't find anything specific online easily, though I can find a lot of general comments like the ones here.

[Jo498]

Like Jews in Germany becoming afraid of rising antisemitism. This is doubly misleading.

Normal Germans and all institutions are falling over themselves to avoid the impression of being antisemitic. There are high administrative positions for "watching antisemitism", briefly, it's a trump card you can "cancel" anyone with, so people naturally watch their tongue. Philosemitism and "Right or wrong, my Israel!" are official doctrines of German governments/general policy. To become more anti-antisemitic would be for a vegan to go on hunger strike

Of yourse there are a few thousand far right wing types who don't bother and do it for street cred.

But the main rise of actual antisemitism is due to (mostly recent) oriental muslim immigrants. They openly chant antisemitic paroles at occasions lik "al quds day", they put graffitis on synagogues and beat up people visibly jewish (wearing kipa). This is rarely mentioned because it could increase anti-muslim bias (maybe it should? it's not a prejudice).
It's just disappointing that Levit plays such facile "I am the Jew" cards. He also supports the insufferable Green party.
As I said, it's not something I find (or even less expect someone else to find) highly immoral or offensive, but it was extremely annoying to me, so I ignore Levit nowadays.

[AnotherSpin]

Like Jews in Germany becoming afraid of rising antisemitism. This is doubly misleading.

Normal Germans and all institutions are falling over themselves to avoid the impression of being antisemitic. There are high administrative positions for "watching antisemitism", briefly, it's a trump card you can "cancel" anyone with, so people naturally watch their tongue. Philosemitism and "Right or wrong, my Israel!" are official doctrines of German governments/general policy. To become more anti-antisemitic would be for a vegan to go on hunger strike

Of yourse there are a few thousand far right wing types who don't bother and do it for street cred.

But the main rise of actual antisemitism is due to (mostly recent) oriental muslim immigrants. They openly chant antisemitic paroles at occasions lik "al quds day", they put graffitis on synagogues and beat up people visibly jewish (wearing kipa). This is rarely mentioned because it could increase anti-muslim bias (maybe it should? it's not a prejudice).
It's just disappointing that Levit plays such facile "I am the Jew" cards. He also supports the insufferable Green party.
As I said, it's not something I find (or even less expect someone else to find) highly immoral or offensive, but it was extremely annoying to me, so I ignore Levit nowadays.

Thank you, this is quite informative. I wonder if it is possible to trace the common source from which support for Greens agenda and philosemitism stems?

[Opus131]

Well, yes, murder is different from pedophilia.

I think one needs to make a distinction between murder committed in a moment of rage or passion compared to something like pedophilia which is something that seems to indicate a more permanent or normalized blot in the soul of an individual. Being a pedophile is closer to being a serial killer in this sense, which makes it harder to imagine a pedophile could ever feel "remorse".

That said, Gesualdo's murder was a particular brutal one and there's something to be said there as well but ultimately it was still the result of momentary rage so the possibility his remorse was genuine is still there. That's important because his music is supposed to reflect his torment and guilt, which ties with the subject of this topic.   

[Todd]

I think one needs to make a distinction between murder committed in a moment of rage or passion compared to something like pedophilia which is something that seems to indicate a more permanent or normalized blot in the soul of an individual.

You do.  I do not.

Being a pedophile is closer to being a serial killer in this sense, which makes it harder to imagine a pedophile could ever feel "remorse".

I suspect you do not have a background in criminal psychology.

That said, Gesualdo's murder was a particular brutal one and there's something to be said there as well but ultimately it was still the result of momentary rage so the possibility his remorse was genuine is still there. That's important because his music is supposed to reflect his torment and guilt, which ties with the subject of this topic.

I dig Gesualdo's music.  I do not engage in mental and moral gymnastics regarding his actions. 

[pjme]

 the insufferable Green party.

Please explain.

[Opus131]

Well, no, i don't have a background in criminal psychology, it just seems common sense to me that an act committed in a fit of momentary passion is not in the same order as something that requires cold premeditation. Unless you think regret or guilt are simply not possible in the case of a passional murder.

Personally, i can imagine a person being tormented by guilt after a crime of passion. I cannot imagine the same for an act of pedophilia, which involves inflicting pain on an innocent for the sake of pursuing some twisted or perverted personal pleasure. The process of conjuring such an act, and then to go through with it, with all the cold deliberation that implies not to mention the reason for committing such an act being SO self-centered it just simply precludes the possibility of guilt. I'd even put it below a premeditated murder, and i think people in general would agree given the reaction to this incident:

[Brian]

the insufferable Green party.

Please explain.

Certainly it indicates the slippery slope nature of the subject matter this thread. There is a tremendous difference between criminality and support of a view the beholder personally disagrees with. I imagine there are loads of people who like Levit more because of his views.

(I don't much enjoy his pianism so even if Jo is describing my own opinions, it won't make me go buy his new CD.)

[Todd]

Well, no, i don't have a background in criminal psychology, it just seems common sense to me...

What seems like common sense to you may or may not have anything to do with how criminals think.

Personally, i can imagine...

What you can imagine has nothing to do with how criminals think.

[Todd]

(I don't much enjoy his pianism so even if Jo is describing my own opinions, it won't make me go buy his new CD.)

His Bach/Beethoven/Rzewski threefer is good. 

[Cato]

The topic reminded me of the following...

About 25 years ago, I came across a lunatic book by a certain E. Michael Jones called Dionysos Rising, which attempted to link the Tristan chord (which can be found in works composed well before Wagner was born) and chromatic harmony in general, to the spread of immorality throughout Western Civilization.

The author also claimed that the adultery of Schoenberg's wife caused the composer to emancipate dissonance, i.e. to emancipate evil (or at least what he considered to be evil-sounding music) and that this led to the immorality inherent (I am NOT making this up) in rock-and-roll, as evinced by Mick Jagger. 

Exactly how those processes worked...unclear.  You must accept that connections exist among them because the author says so.  Ultimately the author is repeating the ancient Greek (Platonic) belief that Music could affect and perhaps even cause certain behaviors in people, and therefore certain kinds of music had to be avoided or even banned.

Laughable AND appalling at the same time!

[Mandryka]

If you look at the wikipedia page in Italian you'll see that the facts of the murder are disputed, the contemporary testimony is not obviously coherent and it may not be at all plausible to say that Gesualdo killed his wife and her lover himself.

Another fact to bear in mind is that, until quite recently in some countries (but maybe not the country Gesualdo lived in) passion was an attenuating circumstance of murder.