Wind band music

[Carlos von Kleiber]

Do you consider that wind band music is a legitimate successor of classical orchestral music?
Much of its output shares with classical music, as opposed to other popular genres, that it is written for musicians playing traditional acoustic instruments in a quite demanding way; further that it is often ambitious in terms of length – composers write works lasting up to an hour and even call them "symphony". Its language is not atonal or avant-garde, thus addressed to the "Liebhaber" not less than to the "Kenner", yet it's not epigonal (like, let's say, Alma Deutscher), since it has developed its own harmonic language, soundscape, way of writing for the instruments, advanced rhythmic and metrical
devices etc. It's written player-friendly (unlike most contemporary classical music, which is not to say that this is deficiency in itself), thus it's possible to be performed also by engaged music enthusiasts just like much of 18th century music had been – which brings them into an active, rather than passive role (like most of us here) when being in contact with the music (and that alone is already a virtue, I think).

However, to me it often sounds like much ado about nothing, I mostly kind of get bored when listening to it. I miss the density of classical music, melodic richness, harmonic direction etc.
Consider for example this huge work by an apparently very renowned composer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc2l0KcvG3k&t=325s

I appreciate some of its qualities which you can find nowhere in classical music, but I can't really stand the modal harmony – the whole first movement, lasting about 10 minutes, kind of gets stuck at one tonal center while consistently avoiding its leading note (maybe that's the trick to not fall back into traditional harmony with all its further implications).

A kind of like this piece for its tightness, virtuosity and rhythmical force especially in the second part, although it also in general sounds a bit overblown to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucSbACSUfsw

I wonder how much of these very personal reservations are owed to wrong expectations, my limited view, being too caught up in tradition and classical music.
Is the style itself possible or not to produce music of highest quality, is it just a matter of how to handle it, does one simply have to set up radically different criteria to do justice to it (and if yes, which ones)?

What do you think?

[relm1]

I don't.  I think wind music is under its own tradition but with a common ancestor (for example in Berlioz's Grand Funeral and Triumphal Symphony which is scored for large wind band with optional strings you can see the strings are an afterthought as if the work was conceived for wind and brass as if they are diverging from a single ensemble.  Brass and wind music frequently comes from a more ceremonial (marches and hymns) tradition too.  I am a brass player and in wind circles, you can find some composers who are very popular that are virtually unknown in orchestral circles and vice versa. 

[Carlos von Kleiber]

I don't.  I think wind music is under its own tradition but with a common ancestor

Let's put it differently: does it fulfil much of what classical music had been or served as in earlier centuries (and if yes, on the same aesthetic level)?

Another even earlier example would be Handel's Music for the Royal Fireworks, but of course it has nothing to do with the modern wind band repertoire in aesthetic terms, I think (same for Berlioz).

I am a brass player and in wind circles, you can find some composers who are very popular that are virtually unknown in orchestral circles and vice versa.

So then, it would be interesting to find out why. Why do most listeners of classical music not care about wind band music and vice versa, although they have so much in common?

[VonStupp]

Elgar, Holst, and Vaughan Williams contributed to wind-band music and I enjoy that music very much. I don't think they succeed nor supplant classical music; they are major contributors to it.

But if I compare Holst's 2nd Suite for Military Band with Gordon Jacob's orchestration of that work, A Hampshire Suite, I generally prefer the latter. Something to do with the saxophones for me.

But then again, Elgar's Severn Suite sounds better to my ears in its symphony orchestra version than the brass band one, so perhaps it is the lack of strings.
VS

[Karl Henning]

I don't.  I think wind music is under its own tradition but with a common ancestor (for example in Berlioz's Grand Funeral and Triumphal Symphony which is scored for large wind band with optional strings you can see the strings are an afterthought as if the work was conceived for wind and brass as if they are diverging from a single ensemble.  Brass and wind music frequently comes from a more ceremonial (marches and hymns) tradition too.  I am a brass player and in wind circles, you can find some composers who are very popular that are virtually unknown in orchestral circles and vice versa. 

Yes.

Let's put it differently: does it fulfil much of what classical music had been or served as in earlier centuries (and if yes, on the same aesthetic level)?

I think that Hindemith trended that way in writing his Symphony in B^b for Band, e.g. Symphonic Band has certainly been accruing a body of work which invites comparison to the "serious" orchestral lit, even as (say) Sousa's marches are on a plane comparable to Strauss Waltzes.

[Carlos von Kleiber]

I think that Hindemith trended that way in writing his Symphony in B^b for Band, e.g. Symphonic Band has certainly been accruing a body of work which invites comparison to the "serious" orchestral lit, even as (say) Sousa's marches are on a plane comparable to Strauss Waltzes.

I get that. But Hindemith and also the composers mentioned by VonStupp were all classical composers of the first half of the previous century. What about living composers, music such as the one I quoted? I mean, isn't that the great thing about it: that there's a living tradition where composers write symphonies and other ambitious orchestra works which are appreciated by a wide audience (consisting of people from all walks of life and not as exclusive as the conservative bourgeoisie that commits to classical music, exaggerating a bit)? And having that possible without coming up with something epigonal (since you immediately hear that it is music of our time which could not have been composed that way in, let's say, in 19th or early 20th century).

Another thing I have to say is that I always associate that modal soundscape with something archaic and even demonic, I can't bring it to an abstract level. I guess that's because I'm too much 'outside', maybe similar to people who associate all baroque music with wigs or whatever because they never really immersed into it and perceive only its superficial layer.

[Karl Henning]

I get that. But Hindemith and also the composers mentioned by VonStupp were all classical composers of the first half of the previous century. What about living composers, music such as the one I quoted? I mean, isn't that the great thing about it: that there's a living tradition where composers write symphonies and other ambitious orchestra works which are appreciated by a wide audience (consisting of people from all walks of life and not as exclusive as the conservative bourgeoisie that commits to classical music, exaggerating a bit)? And having that possible without coming up with something epigonal (since you immediately hear that it is music of our time which could not have been composed that way in, let's say, in 19th or early 20th century).

Another thing I have to say is that I always associate that modal soundscape with something archaic and even demonic, I can't bring it to an abstract level. I guess that's because I'm too much 'outside', maybe similar to people who associate all baroque music with wigs or whatever because they never really immersed into it and perceive only its superficial layer.

Well, I'm a member of the choir you're preaching to (so to speak) as a composer one of whose three symphonies is a Symphony for Band. I wish I could say I'm actually part of the living tradition, but the fact is that I've had little to no luck getting a band to play the pieces I've written for symphonic band.

[VonStupp]

Well, I'm a member of the choir you're preaching to (so to speak) as a composer one of whose three symphonies is a Symphony for Band. I wish I could say I'm actually part of the living tradition, but the fact is that I've had little to no luck getting a band to play the pieces I've written for symphonic band.

I see your Out in the Sun has gotten some love this year, though. 👍
VS

[VonStupp]

Living composers often have their music available for different performing mediums too. Just today I listened to Ticheli, Whitacre, Bernstein, Michael Daugherty, Higdon, and Maslanka, and each have written both for wind band and orchestra (chorus, chamber, etc.), and frequently the same piece is available for different types of ensembles. I suppose the more flexible, the more likely it might be performed.

In the US, I know there is a hearty tradition of wind bands, particularly amateurs from Universities and public schools. It is easier for local communities and public schools to put together a wind band or chorus, whereas an orchestra is usually centered in more populous domains.

From my concert band friends, the current literature tends to be programmatic, at least by title. Those friends are also usually hard into jazz as well, (marching band too I suppose), another genre made up of mostly winds and percussion, but it is one I am very selective of what I enjoy.
VS

[Karl Henning]

I see your Out in the Sun has gotten some love this year, though. 👍
VS

Yes. I'm mighty proud of that 'un!

[david johnson]

I played and conducted wind band music all my career.  I never viewed it as a 'successor' to orchestral music.  Both groups share forms composers wish to utilize, as mentioned: suites, marches, symphonies, tone poems, waltzes in 'standard' or 'contemporary' styles.

[Karl Henning]

I played and conducted wind band music all my career.  I never viewed it as a 'successor' to orchestral music.  Both groups share forms composers wish to utilize, as mentioned: suites, marches, symphonies, tone poems, waltzes in 'standard' or 'contemporary' styles.

Yes, successor is not le mot juste.

[Carlos von Kleiber]

Yes, successor is not le mot juste.

Ok, let's forget about that. I just thought that in a sense wind band music covers something that classical music had covered in the past. Maybe it's just that it seems to be the only living tradition of composing tonal music, meaning composing in a traditional sense (writing scores of non-functional music).

I still wonder how you perceive contemporary wind band music such as the pieces I quoted above and what you think about its compositional qualities.

By the way:

I mean I think it comes down to "people liking what they know" (this is a paraphrase of Dr. Peter Weller), which usually comes down to what is being played and heard. I mean look at this forum, and you'll not see much divergence from the canon of classical music, and no one hear would be considered close to an average listener who might only run into classical music in an elevator or the radio, who seen to consider the late romantics too "modern."

... Well, if you look at this forum, there's a sub-board for Jazz, but none for wind band music. In fact, it's very typical that listeners of classical music also appreciate Jazz, since it's considered to be sophisticated music as well. I don't see wind band music being appreciated much outside its own circles, on the contrary.

[pjme]

In the Low Countries HaFaBra is very active: http://nl.wikisage.org/wiki/Lijst_van_Belgische_HaFaBra-ensembles

https://cemper.be/english
"The amateur instrumental music practice in Flanders goes back about 200 years. The history and experience of wind bands, fanfares and brass bands is diverse and extremely fascinating. It tells the story of countless conductors, musicians and board members, of friendship, relaxation, fun and like-mindedness, but also of petty clashes, political quarrels, jealousy and rivalry. From opera potpourris, dances and marches, original wind music, film music or pop songs. It is a story of rehearsal rooms, of streets and squares, churches, kiosks, the café and cultural centers. From national holidays, funerals and weddings that are graced with appropriate music, competitions, parades and processions, fairs and carnivals, anniversaries, tar parties, the inauguration of monuments or the visit of highly honored guests. Of triumphs and defeats.

Amateur music practice has always been influenced by similar social trends and evolutions. Yet each music society also writes its own story within that shared history and therefore occupies a special place."

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fanfare-Wagnerienne-Guildhall-Brass-Ensemble/dp/B00BUA8UUG

https://www.discogs.com/release/21911527-Paul-Gilson-Brass-Band-Buizingen-Luc-Vertommen-Royal-Symphonic-Band-Of-The-Belgian-Guides-Norbert-No

Dutch National youth fanfare orchestra: https://www.njfo.nl/

Arthur Prevost : http://www.mirasound.nl/musicshop/contents/nl/p485.html


https://www.discogs.com/release/3882289-Brass-Band-Buizingen-olv-Luc-Vertommen-Royal-Symphonic-Band-Of-The-Belgian-Guides-olv-Fran%C3%A7ois-De-R
https://www.discogs.com/release/18912328-Marcel-Poot-Brass-Band-Buizingen-Luc-Vertommen-Royal-Symphonic-Band-Of-The-Belgian-Guides-Norbert-No
Composer/conductor jan Van der Roost travels the world : https://janvanderroost.com/

Some composers know how to impress...even if"... it often sounds like much ado about nothing, I mostly kind of get bored when listening to it. I miss the density of classical music, melodic richness, harmonic direction etc."


Yasuhide Ito: Gloriosa - intriguing !Inspired by ".... songs.... about Japanese Christians of the Edo Period and their fight to keep their beliefs."
https://youtu.be/HL0htrubtgc
Franco Cesarini: the Archangels . Nice , but too long. The first movement however I find enjoyable in its flamboyance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0aiui59aJQ&t=142s
However nothing beats the ttotally overblown and kitschy) mega blood-curling-heart-and-ear-stopping pomp and drama of Spanish composer Oscar Navarro....MuchMoreand louder IS better!
https://youtu.be/O4IhMrs8UUw
https://youtu.be/GhpKToIpGNY

My old friend Koechlin (in Japan) is quite cool however...:
https://youtu.be/TPxhDAeOEwo

Further: at least two symphonies for band by Henk Badings (13 & 15), Florent Schmitts Dionisiaques, Jules Strens' Danse funambulesque, Milhauds Suite française, Arthur Meulemans symphony nr. 4,
20th century composers interested in band music: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_Gotkovsky
https://www.bertappermont.be/
https://johandemeij.com/
https://www.jacobdehaan.com/en
https://www.hafabramusic.com/list-composer/nl

[Maestro267]

Jazz is its own thing. Wind band music is part of the classical tradition.

My favourite original works for wind band are David Maslanka's 4th Symphony and John Corigliano's 3rd Symphony Circus Maximus.

[Karl Henning]

Ok, let's forget about that. I just thought that in a sense wind band music covers something that classical music had covered in the past. Maybe it's just that it seems to be the only living tradition of composing tonal music, meaning composing in a traditional sense (writing scores of non-functional music).

Maybe that is why my band symphony hasn't got out the gate: The Nerves is certainly not cozily tonal (not a denigration of tonal music.) And since compositional practice in our day is really all over the map, there is still tonal choral, chamber and orchestral music being written all the time.

[pjme]

HaFaBra ensembles (and choral societies) are -imho- important in giving young people opportunities to offer both technical and artistic challenges that might broaden their musical world.

"What makes band activity meaningful and worthwhile is the process of music making itself." - read more in  Seow Yibin's article.

https://thebandpost.com/2015/05/why-band-music-is-important/

Although I'm definitely not too familiar with the HaFaBra world, I dare say that over the last 50-60 years a huge amount of new compositions has been written, is printed and performed (cfr. Jan Van der Roost, Jacob de Haan, Johan de Mey, Bert Appermont, Piet Swerts ...) . It goes without saying that not all of it is of the "highest order"...if one wants to compare.   
However, I'm amazed at the constant activity of the organisations in Belgium and the Netherlands (Europe...the world?).
Especially brass sections of many (European) orchestras thrive thanks to the regular "supply" of new musicians who learned the trade in a windband. 

Kerkrade contest

VLAMO contests

(Flemish only...)

Anyway, one can regret that Bartok, Stravinsky, Ravel, Britten et.aL;.... didn't write (much) for wind ensembles. Large chunks of the iron repertoire (Bach, Beethoven, Bolero, Bumble bee, Sabre dance, juicy selections from musicals, pop songs, sentimental opera fragments...) have been transcribed in extenso.

Light and fun

Love this!

[Maestro267]

What the hell is HaFaBra? You mention that as if we're supposed to know what on earth it is.

[Karl Henning]

The Toch is great fun!

[pjme]

What the hell is HaFaBra? You mention that as if we're supposed to know what on earth it is.

Relax, dear maestro!  Just ask.

I wrongly thought that it is an international abbreviation. Harmonie - Fanfare - Brassband.

Harmonieorkest: brass, woodwind, sax, percussion, eventually piano, cellos, basses, harp etc.
Fanfare: brass and percussion
Brassband: cornets, flügelhorns,euphoniums, trombones, tubas + percussion