Wuorinen's Whirlygig

[Karl Henning]

http://www.youtube.com/v/6IJ2brvSa5I

[Mahlerian]

New article for Wuorinen's 80th birthday, coming soon.

https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/the-syncopated-stylings-of-charles-wuorinen/

Another recent article in the NY Times:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/25/arts/music/charles-wuorinen-brokeback-mountain-city-opera.html

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I noticed a curious trend in recent reviews of Brokeback Mountain that the most criticism is directed against Wuorinen's ability to create a harsh, dangerous environment surrounding the two lowers through the musical language he employs. I haven't heard the opera aside from a few excerpts, which I found to be highly emotive and somehow I feel as if Wuorinen perfectly captures not only the dangerously conservative environment of the era but also the complex, passionate emotions within the characters themselves and how this impacts how they express or suppress their emotions to one another. Reviews like this one in the Observer make themselves appear that maybe the critic walked into the wrong theatre.....

[Karl Henning]

Likewise, while I have not yet heard the entire opera, the excerpts which I have heard impress me as both (1) Wuorinen at the top of his game, and (2) beautifully suited to the stage endeavor.

My impression is that the negative critiques are driven by a lack of sympathy with the character of Charles's work (which is impervious to reason), and possibly even a chafing at Charles's expressed opinions about Art, Culture, &c., which (as they are easier – than his music – for the man in the street to understand) are a pretty easy target for folks who just want it all to be warm and fuzzy.

And, obviously:  More people are going to have an opinion about what an opera based on Brokeback Mountain "ought to be," than are going to give Charles's work a fair hearing.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Well, I am rather certain that I indeed had some ideas of what a Brokeback Mountain opera 'ought to be' and hearing some excerpts really just confirmed in my mind that his retro-expressionist style is apt for the emotions present in this kind of love story.

(And, to be honest, any kind of retro-expressionist opera that stylistically has more than a few things in common with the operas of Schoenberg and Berg are gonna really tap into the type of music I have a real weakness for)

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Likewise, while I have not yet heard the entire opera, the excerpts which I have heard impress me as both (1) Wuorinen at the top of his game, and (2) beautifully suited to the stage endeavor.

My impression is that the negative critiques are driven by a lack of sympathy with the character of Charles's work (which is impervious to reason), and possibly even a chafing at Charles's expressed opinions about Art, Culture, &c., which (as they are easier – than his music – for the man in the street to understand) are a pretty easy target for folks who just want it all to be warm and fuzzy.

And, obviously:  More people are going to have an opinion about what an opera based on Brokeback Mountain "ought to be," than are going to give Charles's work a fair hearing.

To the bit I underlined.......I am curious to know more about his thoughts on arts and culture. I heard that his response to Lamar's Pulitzer Prize was negative based on the idea that people are losing an interest in 'high culture' or something like that? One other big proponent of serialism (let's call him Pierre) spoke quite favourably of how pop music is really progressing new music technology and instruments and that it highly values a culture that renews itself and explores new methods of sound production in ways which have a big cultural impact. Perhaps Wuorinen would be of that opinion too and I have only read stuff out of context?

[Mahlerian]

To the bit I underlined.......I am curious to know more about his thoughts on arts and culture. I heard that his response to Lamar's Pulitzer Prize was negative based on the idea that people are losing an interest in 'high culture' or something like that? One other big proponent of serialism (let's call him Pierre) spoke quite favourably of how pop music is really progressing new music technology and instruments and that it highly values a culture that renews itself and explores new methods of sound production in ways which have a big cultural impact. Perhaps Wuorinen would be of that opinion too and I have only read stuff out of context?

Nope, it's in the NYT article I linked to.  He thinks that the Lamar Pulitzer is just the proof of the death of high culture that he'd been complaining about all along.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Nope, it's in the NYT article I linked to.  He thinks that the Lamar Pulitzer is just the proof of the death of high culture that he'd been complaining about all along.

That's a bit of a silly thing to complain about.

[Mahlerian]

That's a bit of a silly thing to complain about.

Well, more specifically, he called it the proof of the "final disappearance of any societal interest in high culture" in the country at large.  You haven't been to the US, I don't think, but it's certainly true that the number of people in this country who are even aware of Charles Wuorinen's existence is vanishingly small, despite his own status as a Pulitzer winner and prolific composer.  National media pay little attention to concert music.  There is next to no awareness of the fact that composers are even out there writing new works for orchestral and chamber groups.

That said, I do think that griping about popular culture is misplaced, and I think much more along the lines of Takemitsu or Schoenberg, who thought there was no shame in enjoying popular music at all.

[Karl Henning]

Nope, it's in the NYT article I linked to.  He thinks that the Lamar Pulitzer is just the proof of the death of high culture that he'd been complaining about all along.

I do not say simply, "He is right" (though, he might be, mightn't he?) but . . . does he not have a point?

That said, I do think that griping about popular culture is misplaced, and I think much more along the lines of Takemitsu or Schoenberg, who thought there was no shame in enjoying popular music at all.

I don't think it is that Charles thinks it shameful to enjoy popular music, really.  My read (of part, anyway) of his quarrel is, that even ("even," if you please!) the pool of (to use the term for purposes of discussion) Classical Music has been muddied with a trend to lazily echo popular music.  So, not to say that it is shameful to like popular music, but it is a cultural disappointment if pop music is the leveler for all musics.  Personally, I participate in this argument, to the degree that I resent (e.g.) John Williams being lionized as (warning: exaggeration for rhetorical effect approaching) as America's Greatest Living Composer.

[Baron Scarpia]

I don't think it is that Charles thinks it shameful to enjoy popular music, really.  My read (of part, anyway) of his quarrel is, that even ("even," if you please!) the pool of (to use the term for purposes of discussion) Classical Music has been muddied with a trend to lazily echo popular music.  So, not to say that it is shameful to like popular music, but it is a cultural disappointment if pop music is the leveler for all musics.  Personally, I participate in this argument, to the degree that I resent (e.g.) John Williams being lionized as (warning: exaggeration for rhetorical effect approaching) as America's Greatest Living Composer.

I think "highbrow culture" is as high as it ever was. What has disappeared is "middlebrow culture."

[Karl Henning]

You have a point.

[Mahlerian]

I do not say simply, "He is right" (though, he might be, mightn't he?) but . . . does he not have a point?

I don't think it is that Charles thinks it shameful to enjoy popular music, really.  My read (of part, anyway) of his quarrel is, that even ("even," if you please!) the pool of (to use the term for purposes of discussion) Classical Music has been muddied with a trend to lazily echo popular music.  So, not to say that it is shameful to like popular music, but it is a cultural disappointment if pop music is the leveler for all musics.  Personally, I participate in this argument, to the degree that I resent (e.g.) John Williams being lionized as (warning: exaggeration for rhetorical effect approaching) as America's Greatest Living Composer.

Point taken, and I concede that you are more likely to know Wuorinen's thoughts on this and other matters than I am.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

The whole idea of 'high' and 'low' culture should always be questioned. There is nothing in so-called 'low' culture that doesn't include some kind of elite level of understanding/knowledge and nothing in so-called 'high' culture that isn't comparable to so-called 'low' culture.

There are things that pop and hip-hop do to an extraordinarily level of intricacy that is absolutely equal (but different) to Mr. Wuorinen's note-rows when it comes down to the level of training and skill required to fully understand music production to create a really really good pop or hip-hop album.

[Alek Hidell]

The whole idea of 'high' and 'low' culture should always be questioned. There is nothing in so-called 'low' culture that doesn't include some kind of elite level of understanding/knowledge and nothing in so-called 'high' culture that isn't comparable to so-called 'low' culture.

There are things that pop and hip-hop do to an extraordinarily level of intricacy that is absolutely equal (but different) to Mr. Wuorinen's note-rows when it comes down to the level of training and skill required to fully understand music production to create a really really good pop or hip-hop album.

I approve this message. And let's face it: there is very often more than a hint of racism in distinctions between "high" and "low" "culture."

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

+1

Wuorinen's ideas about low culture appear to me to reflect the driving force behind Colonialism:  Missionaries attempting to replace "primitive" native religions with Christianity; Europeans invading the Americas and enslaving, exploiting and perpetrating cultural genocide on native peoples all across the globe.

The assumption is always that European culture is superior to whatever exists elsewhere. 

For sure what Wuroinen is expressing is a far less dangerous variety than anything like the crimes against humanity performed by Colonial overlords - but the mindset strikes me as  similar and just as distasteful.  Wuorinen simply assumes his music, his taste, is superior and naturally should not lose ground to what he sees as "lower" forms of music.

The irony is that his opera about two cowboys (low culture) is his own act of cultural colonialism as he exploits the story of two representatives of a society in which his music would hardly be understood.

This is a truth that far too few are willing to bring up. I don't know if Wuorinen himself sympathises with colonialism through his views on 'high' and 'low' culture, but it may well have unconsciously influenced his views.

[ritter]

I must express my strongest disagreement with much of what has been stated in recent posts here. Saying that when someone is an advocate for "high culture" (and sorry, but IMHO there definitely is such a thing), they are somehow influenced by, or even expousing, racist or colonialist views, is unfair and perfidious. There is nothing wrong in defending art as it has evolved over the centuries into a universal language accepted by many (regardless of their nationality, race or any other personal condsiderations), The achievements of the Western cultural tradition are rivalled by only very few other artistic expressions. In music, certainly, that is the case, and even the richest and most elaborate "popular" genres (be it flamenco in Spain, some jazz or Indian classical)  cannot be equated to classical as an art form.

And let's be clear: Charles Wuorinen has in no way "exploited" the (fictional) story of two cowboys who couldn't care less about his music. What he's done is use an art form (opera) and a musical language that transcend time and space to tell a story in a way that helps it stop being "local" and gives it a "universal" (more successfully or not, that is another issue) character—as have innumerable operas in the past (some of them better, some of them worse, that's again another issue).

Who was it that said "show me something like Remembrance of Things Past produced by the aborigines of Australia, and then we'll talk" (or something to that effect). Cruel words, perhaps, but the man had a point...

[Karl Henning]

It has certainly taken Lack of Sympathy With Wuorinen's Work to the next level.

[Baron Scarpia]

Who was it that said "show me something like Remembrance of Things Past produced by the aborigines of Australia, and then we'll talk" (or something to that effect). Cruel words, perhaps, but the man had a point...

https://www.amazon.com/Walking-People-Native-American-History/dp/1879678101

[Karl Henning]

https://www.amazon.com/Walking-People-Native-American-History/dp/1879678101

Thank you, most interesting!

On a less serious note, what do we mean, "Oops, I Did It Again" is not culturally equivalent to this?