Author Topic: Wuorinen's Whirlygig  (Read 38578 times)

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #320 on: June 14, 2018, 04:19:24 AM »
Jessop, what do you think of the Wuorinen piece?
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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ComposerOfAvantGarde

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #321 on: June 14, 2018, 05:21:07 AM »
Jessop, what do you think of the Wuorinen piece?

It's quite nice! It reminds me of 1930s Schoenberg a bit, and maybe some late Stravinsky, but with a much more introspective character, I think. Sure, it doesn't utilise the instruments as much more than a means of producing pitch and rhythm, but he treats the instruments in exactly the way they would be best suited for what Wuorinen is interested composing.

snyprrr

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #322 on: June 14, 2018, 06:42:01 AM »
Kokoras is one of my favourite composers working with electronics. See what you think of this:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/z3hYmvd2Fqs" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/z3hYmvd2Fqs</a>

And also this piece for a completely different take:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/IwHXDmypUCw" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/IwHXDmypUCw</a>

Yea, the first one was cute and bubbly. The Dougherty was a little droney. I still think a lot of my criticisms apply to these two pieces. Maybe it's because I'm hearing Chopin/Debussy/Satie right now that I'm noticing that all this "literature" is ... sorry... appallingly Unattractive. I mean, I can personally entertain myself in this fashion when I'm Playing, but I would never Listen to this, and, ... wow, ... I feel like I can't even take it seriously. It just seems like this rep is light years behind the more traditional instruments, and I'm chalking this up to a lack of imagination of the Composers' part. Say what you will  Van Halen stealing Bach licks, but, why couldn't that be seen as a start?

As with the "street cred" thing with the BlackMusic, GuitarMusic, as it stands TODAY has its own set of ... requirements,... and, Classically speaking, I feel that everyone from Branca to... now Wuorinen, are only strengthening the argument that the ElectricGuitar should be kept in check when manhandled by such outliers as... even Dougherty appears to be at this time.


When you said that the Wuorinen piece sounded like Schoenberg, I think that's the clue there, -


'Twilight Zone' theme may be ElectricGuitar's greatest ClassicalMoment?...



Fact is, EG has quite a doleful sound to it,... using it makes one's ClassicalPiece sound more depressing that it need be...

AND THE FACT THAT NOT ONE CLASSICAL EG PIECE I'VE HEARD UTILIZES ONE OUNCE OF OLD FASHIONED VIRTUOSITY...can any of these types of players even improvise,... (again, CRC, without "guitar" tropes?)...

Is this what "guitar without tropes" sounds like?? ...pass the Gatton, please



BTW- seems there is a lot of Composing for "Foot Pedal", rather than actually Composing for GUITAR.


GUITARISTS!!!!! STAY OUT OF THE CONSERVATORIES!!!!!!!!FOR YOUR VERY CREATIVE LIVES!!!!!!

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #323 on: June 14, 2018, 07:35:10 AM »
Even though this can bring snypsss only pain . . .

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/iZoUm0ow9zY" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/iZoUm0ow9zY</a>
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

snyprrr

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #324 on: June 14, 2018, 12:52:32 PM »
Even though this can bring snypsss only pain . . .

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/iZoUm0ow9zY" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/iZoUm0ow9zY</a>
[/quote

See? This is what I mean. Charley's writing music from 1939,... in 1972!!

I mean, you know, I enjoy my five odd Koch discs from time to time,... CW fits squarely into the UPTOWN crowd,... but, do we STILL need to be writing the music of our teachers? (Roger Sessions)...

If you maaade me, I'd say my favorite Work by CW is the String Quartet No.2,

'Maaandy,... you came and you gave without takin...'

ComposerOfAvantGarde

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #325 on: June 15, 2018, 10:53:42 PM »
Yeah but Wuorinen's music can sound old-hat if he wants it to. I don't have a problem with it. He may be a a very conservative composer, but his musical style is still quite inventive to me.

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #326 on: June 16, 2018, 05:29:52 AM »
Yeah but Wuorinen's music can sound old-hat if he wants it to. I don't have a problem with it. He may be a a very conservative composer, but his musical style is still quite inventive to me.

Agreed with the above, but I don't think Snyprrr is correct in hearing Wuorinen's music as an extension of Sessions'.  It draws on late Stravinsky and Babbitt far more than Sessions, and rhythmically it's very different than anything written in the 1930s.  It's kind of like accusing Brahms of re-writing Beethoven in the 1880s because his music doesn't have the outwardly progressive character of Liszt's or Wagner's.  To me, Wuorinen doesn't really sound any more similar to Sessions or Schoenberg than Brahms does to Beethoven or Schubert.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #327 on: June 16, 2018, 07:10:33 AM »
'Maaandy,... you came and you gave without takin...'

Thanks for reminding us all that easy scorn is no substitute for an argument.

And for the reminder, too, that there is practically nothing more supremely lame, than when one's contribution to a thread about a given composer is to repeat, again and again, But, I don't really like N. . . . .
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #328 on: June 16, 2018, 09:16:02 AM »
Wuorinen's music, especially his late works, displays a masterful and rigorous command of his chosen language while at the same time writing music that contains an, for lack of a better phrase, emotional core.  I know that music is not emotional but I don't know how to say it any other way.

New music hardly gets any better than what he has accomplished.

The music has a character, a voice, which is his own, and is superbly made.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

snyprrr

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #329 on: June 16, 2018, 10:11:39 AM »
Thanks for reminding us all that easy scorn is no substitute for an argument.

And for the reminder, too, that there is practically nothing more supremely lame, than when one's contribution to a thread about a given composer is to repeat, again and again, But, I don't really like N. . . . .

My "" was that CW was writing Schoenberg Music for 4 Guitars (or Babbitt Music), which everyone seems to agree with. I dunno, I readily admit his technique,...

Maybe I'm just saying he's not innovative,... hasn't been able to change his style over the decades (hey, like you said, it's his 'bag', and he gets to do it to his heart's content ebcause he's successfully established himself, yay)... you're agreeing that he's now an absolute Conservative... the new D'Indy!?!?!,...


I mean, what happened to Brokeback????,... where is the Warners plush Edition??,...isn't this what the rage is, so, what happened? Did the Consumer exercise their discretion?


I mean,who was writing Conservative music in 1918? And who cares now? Similarly, when SchoenbergMusic is considered Conservative in 2018, well, is it a surprise no one cares? The Conservative Music of 1918 was a whole lot more tuneful than its contemporary counterpart.

What? Is CW bold and daring cuz he's the ONLY one currently writing in this style (what, are we back to Rochberg in 1975?)?  So, Lamar wins the Pulitzer, and not CW...


As for the "I don't like" comment, well, I'm almost guessing that was from the snyprrr/MirrorImage back and forth in the Debussy Thread. Well,fact is I still push myself to "like" things I really don't care for. I see you overlooked when I said String Quartet No.2 would be my fav CW- why this piece? No, I didn't hear that...

Just listen to the piece and you should understand - it's one of his clearest utterances, succinct, comes and goes in proper time,... it's just Obvious , its mastery,...


I mean, lol, I prefer CW to Wolpe, oy vey!!!




I've been listening to Sokolov's Preludes during this whole writing, and even they are getting on my nerves,... all this Piano Banging!!!!!!!



CW has written ENOUGH to where criticizing him should simply be de rigoure

snyprrr

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #330 on: June 17, 2018, 07:11:55 AM »
btw- 'Mandy' wasn't a swipe at CW. I just can't get that melody out of my head! :-\

And, maybe 'Mandy' was brought up because someone else brought PopMusic into the discussion first: I countered Lamar's 'Humble' with 'Mandy'. Frankly, I think 'Mandy' wins.

Now, the question is, does 'Mandy' beat CW? This is just an afterthought and is by no mean meant as a troll- seriously- can 'Mandy' get looped into your brain to the point of not letting any CW in, no matter how hard you concentrate? Would you be able to hear CW in your head without 'Mandy' breaking in at the worst moment?


Personally, I use 'Karma Chameleon' as a 'trope eraser', when I get some unpleasant music stuck in my head. And, thankfully, once it's done its job, it too vanishes from my mind until it is again needed.



I mean, what's not to love about that 'Feinberg' Sonata? You got me all wrong, Karl 0:) :-*

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #331 on: June 18, 2018, 06:33:14 AM »
I mean, what happened to Brokeback????,... where is the Warners plush Edition??,...isn't this what the rage is, so, what happened? Did the Consumer exercise their discretion?

It was brought out on DVD/Blu-Ray:



And it was recently performed in NY in a version reduced for chamber orchestra.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #332 on: June 18, 2018, 07:16:34 AM »
It was brought out on DVD/Blu-Ray:



And it was recently performed in NY in a version reduced for chamber orchestra.

Terrific, thanks!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #333 on: June 19, 2018, 09:59:35 AM »
Just stumbled on this thread.

+1

Wuorinen's ideas about low culture appear to me to reflect the driving force behind Colonialism:  Missionaries attempting to replace "primitive" native religions with Christianity; Europeans invading the Americas and enslaving, exploiting and perpetrating cultural genocide on native peoples all across the globe.

The assumption is always that European culture is superior to whatever exists elsewhere. 

For sure what Wuroinen is expressing is a far less dangerous variety than anything like the crimes against humanity performed by Colonial overlords - but the mindset strikes me as  similar and just as distasteful.  Wuorinen simply assumes his music, his taste, is superior and naturally should not lose ground to what he sees as "lower" forms of music.

The irony is that his opera about two cowboys (low culture) is his own act of cultural colonialism as he exploits the story of two representatives of a society in which his music would hardly be understood.

I just gotta say - I find it hilarious that this post was written by a self-declared Trump supporter. I expect this sort of rhetoric from a junior prof of Post-Colonial Studies at some no-name college.

(Note: no particular criticism intended here. People are complicated, and that's what makes them interesting. Sorry to derail.)
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #334 on: June 20, 2018, 12:07:37 AM »
Would you be able to hear CW in your head without 'Mandy' breaking in at the worst moment?

I have never suffered the least difficulty in that regard.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #335 on: June 28, 2018, 09:39:53 AM »
It was brought out on DVD/Blu-Ray:



And it was recently performed in NY in a version reduced for chamber orchestra.

Okay, my disc has landed . . . may be a few days before I can sit and watch it.

G P Padillo's review at Amazon was a heartwarming read.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
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http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #336 on: July 14, 2018, 12:18:40 PM »
It was brought out on DVD/Blu-Ray:



This is magnificent. Yes, I come to this as a former student, so I am already inclined to like it. Mightily impressed, I find it an even stronger, even more beautiful work than I expected. It will be nearly a contemporary music tragedy, if this does not get performed more.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #337 on: July 14, 2018, 12:59:36 PM »
This is magnificent. Yes, I come to this as a former student, so I am already inclined to like it. Mightily impressed, I find it an even stronger, even more beautiful work than I expected. It will be nearly a contemporary music tragedy, if this does not get performed more.
I was there ....  :)
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #338 on: July 14, 2018, 01:21:04 PM »
I remember!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
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http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline vers la flamme

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #339 on: September 29, 2019, 09:33:26 AM »


Recently I happened upon this CD at a local record store, and I went for it for the Boulez, and because it was only $3 or something like that. I'm just now getting around to hearing the Wuorinen sonata, which was actually written for this pianist. 32 minutes of hardcore, 12-tone serialist piano music in one movement may seem like a daunting task to get through, and that's probably not an unfair assessment. But this is really kind of beautiful stuff I think. Not terribly far removed from the sound world of Boulez's deuxième sonate, but not as harsh, with a kind of weirdly lush beauty to it all. Maybe I'm just getting so used to the world of 12-tone music that nothing will phase me or strike me as harsh? I don't know. The playing is excellent, if nothing else.

Anyway, my interest in this composer is piqued (and in the pianist). I'm going to seek out the String Sextet mentioned in the OP. I listened to some of Time's Encomium at one point, it's not for me I think, or at least not yet. I don't always get on with the music of the American "ultramodernists" but Wuorinen appears to be one of the good ones. Interesting stuff.