Author Topic: Wuorinen's Whirlygig  (Read 39276 times)

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Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #280 on: June 12, 2018, 04:30:22 AM »
But I suspect Wuorinen did not take this into account and just expressed his dislike for Hip-Hop in general. I assume if a jazz artist had gotten the Pulizer-prize he would not have reacted this way.     

Just to remark that this has in fact happened a few times.  Ornette Coleman won back in the early 2000s soon after the rule change that allowed works that existed primarily in the form of a recording rather than a score.

Of course Ornette Coleman is only marginally more popular than Charles Wuorinen...
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 04:33:31 AM by Mahlerian »
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline chadfeldheimer

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #281 on: June 12, 2018, 04:55:02 AM »
Say more.
There is not much more to say. IMO there are just as many high quality products released in the realm of pop than in the realm of classical music. It is only consequent that a pop album gets the Pulizer Prize.

Offline chadfeldheimer

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #282 on: June 12, 2018, 04:57:07 AM »
Just to remark that this has in fact happened a few times.  Ornette Coleman won back in the early 2000s soon after the rule change that allowed works that existed primarily in the form of a recording rather than a score.

Of course Ornette Coleman is only marginally more popular than Charles Wuorinen...
Interesting. I suppose the Pulizer prices for jazzers were less controversion than the one for Kendrick Lamar, or?

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #283 on: June 12, 2018, 05:01:05 AM »
There is not much more to say.

Of course there is.  Please enlarge on the commercial aspect of classical music.  I ask as someone who earns hardly anything from the music I make;  so from my perspective, there is hardly any commercial aspect of classical music.

I am interested in your perspective, which apparently differs from mine;  and so far we have only an assertion.  An assertion without discussion, begging your pardon, is of scant interest.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline San Antone

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #284 on: June 12, 2018, 05:04:28 AM »
Why are you  comparing classical music with commercial music?  Commercial music which is produced in order to make money, a product no different than Coca Cola, does not arise out of the same motivation as a classical composer desiring to create art.  Sure some commercial music can be artistically done - but for me the non-classical music that compares most favorably to classical music is vernacular music, folk based, music such as blues, mountain music, flamenco, fado, eastern European peasant music, Chinese and Middle Eastern street music - etc.

If I had to choose, I'd prefer music from the "folk" over that from the conservatory.  Music played for the poor disenfranchised people has more of what I identify with than music created for the upper classes.  Classical music came from the court and church, both were institutions of the upper classes.  The classical music audience is still the upper classes; poor folk simply cannot afford to attend a symphony concert or opera subscription.  But the front porch music they make and hear is what they understand and enjoy anyway - and it fulfills their need for music, no less than someone attending a classical concert.

So when I hear people claiming that classical music is superior to all other forms of music it seems elitist, cut off from much of the world's population, and concerned primarily with the educated upper classes rather than poor sometimes illiterate folk.

Offline chadfeldheimer

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #285 on: June 12, 2018, 05:20:40 AM »
Of course there is.  Please enlarge on the commercial aspect of classical music.  I ask as someone who earns hardly anything from the music I make;  so from my perspective, there is hardly any commercial aspect of classical music.

I am interested in your perspective, which apparently differs from mine;  and so far we have only an assertion.  An assertion without discussion, begging your pardon, is of scant interest.
I don't like the commercialism of pop music too. But I am a fan of and have a large collection of non commercial pop music, which is just as uncompromised as modern classical music, maybe even more so because there is no support from public institutions like (at least in Germany or Europe) for classical musicians. It files under pop just because it has it's roots there and not in the "academic" classical realm. Hope that made my point a bit clearer.

Baron Scarpia

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #286 on: June 12, 2018, 05:22:16 AM »
A genre such as symphonic music, Jazz, folk, defines a set of constraints and rules. Human beings encounter those constraints, bring with them their cultural influences and identity, and may create something. The quality of all genre's of music is ultimately limited by human creativity, and therefore I find the ultimate quality of all genre's of music to be the same. Not every instance reaches that highest level of quality, obviously

Some forms, such as some classical forms, come with very elaborate rules. If I aspire to write a fugue, there are very complex rules of harmony and voice leading which, if mastered, automatically produce something which sounds like a fugue. That is a support to the classical composer, allowing him or her to write drivel which sounds very accomplished. This is what some people seem to mistake for the superiority of classical music.

Then there is the commercial side. All forms of music have a commercial side. There is certainly music whose motivation is almost 100% commercial, and this is pretty strongly anti-correlated with real artistic interest. Pop music has it's Brittney Spears, and Classical music has its Start Wars Soundtrack albums.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #287 on: June 12, 2018, 05:27:39 AM »
I don't like the commercialism of pop music too. But I am a fan of and have a large collection of non commercial pop music, which is just as uncompromised as modern classical music, maybe even more so because there is no support from public institutions like (at least in Germany or Europe) for classical musicians. It files under pop just because it has it's roots there and not in the "academic" classical realm. Hope that made my point a bit clearer.

Well, in my post earlier my model does allow for non-commercial pop.

I'll consider your point clarified  ;)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #288 on: June 12, 2018, 05:28:56 AM »
A genre such as symphonic music, Jazz, folk, defines a set of constraints and rules. Human beings encounter those constraints, bring with them their cultural influences and identity, and may create something. The quality of all genre's of music is ultimately limited by human creativity, and therefore I find the ultimate quality of all genre's of music to be the same. Not every instance reaches that highest level of quality, obviously

Some forms, such as some classical forms, come with very elaborate rules. If I aspire to write a fugue, there are very complex rules of harmony and voice leading which, if mastered, automatically produce something which sounds like a fugue. That is a support to the classical composer, allowing him or her to write drivel which sounds very accomplished. This is what some people seem to mistake for the superiority of classical music.

Then there is the commercial side. All forms of music have a commercial side. There is certainly music whose motivation is almost 100% commercial, and this is pretty strongly anti-correlated with real artistic interest. Pop music has it's Brittney Spears, and Classical music has its Start Wars Soundtrack albums.

Yes;  if the music goes ta-da! for money, you get the ta-da! that the money pays for.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline chadfeldheimer

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #289 on: June 12, 2018, 05:48:11 AM »
Why are you  comparing classical music with commercial music?  Commercial music which is produced in order to make money, a product no different than Coca Cola, does not arise out of the same motivation as a classical composer desiring to create art.  Sure some commercial music can be artistically done - but for me the non-classical music that compares most favorably to classical music is vernacular music, folk based, music such as blues, mountain music, flamenco, fado, eastern European peasant music, Chinese and Middle Eastern street music - etc.

If I had to choose, I'd prefer music from the "folk" over that from the conservatory.  Music played for the poor disenfranchised people has more of what I identify with than music created for the upper classes.  Classical music came from the court and church, both were institutions of the upper classes.  The classical music audience is still the upper classes; poor folk simply cannot afford to attend a symphony concert or opera subscription.  But the front porch music they make and hear is what they understand and enjoy anyway - and it fulfills their need for music, no less than someone attending a classical concert.

So when I hear people claiming that classical music is superior to all other forms of music it seems elitist, cut off from much of the world's population, and concerned primarily with the educated upper classes rather than poor sometimes illiterate folk.
Actually my main point was that Wuorinens commentary was rather directed against Hip-Hop than against non-classical music or music from other ethnicities. But the discussion lead to another direction.

I did not compare classical with commercial but with pop music, which makes a difference IMO. In the meaning I used it pop is music coming from a certain tradition based on rock and pop. In that definition even uncompromising bands like Throbbing Gristle or the Residents are pop. Regarding folk music - I don't have a strong opinion about it, due to lacking knowledge I have to admit. I know a bit traditional chinese music via my ex-wife. That sounded to me highly sophisticated with an archaic grandeur.

Offline San Antone

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #290 on: June 12, 2018, 06:10:31 AM »
Actually my main point was that Wuorinens commentary was rather directed against Hip-Hop than against non-classical music or music from other ethnicities. But the discussion lead to another direction.

I did not compare classical with commercial but with pop music, which makes a difference IMO. In the meaning I used it pop is music coming from a certain tradition based on rock and pop. In that definition even uncompromising bands like Throbbing Gristle or the Residents are pop. Regarding folk music - I don't have a strong opinion about it, due to lacking knowledge I have to admit. I know a bit traditional chinese music via my ex-wife. That sounded to me highly sophisticated with an archaic grandeur.

Pop music = commercial music, i.e. music created to appeal to a mass audience and marketed to become as profitable as possible.  As Scarpia pointed out, all forms of music have a commercial example.  I have zero interest in commercial music in any form.

I would guess it is as rare for pop music to be as successful artistically as it is commercially as it is for a classical composer to make a living solely from his composing.  Most classical composers have another job: professor, conductor, musicologist, or insurance executive, e.g. Charles Ives.  Nothing wrong with that or anything to be ashamed of.  The same is true for most musicians working in a vernacular tradition. 

In order to preserve the highest artistic level a creator needs to be free from commercial concerns as much as possible.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 06:13:44 AM by San Antone »

Offline CRCulver

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #291 on: June 12, 2018, 07:23:58 AM »
I know that Kendrick Lamar does not have lyrics like this. 

Actually Kendrick Lamar has plenty of lyrics like that. You can read them for yourself online. While the critical praise is for lyrics that sometimes go beyond hip-hop tropes, as well as the production, the hip-hop tropes are still there. For me, that is a huge turnoff – I am still looking for hip-hop that involves absolutely no braggadocio, rapping about rapping, or references to American sociopolitical issues – but by the same token, other people could probably accuse Wuorinen or other composers of their own resorting to well-worn tropes.

Offline San Antone

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #292 on: June 12, 2018, 07:33:05 AM »
I am still looking for hip-hop that involves absolutely no braggadocio, rapping about rapping, or references to American sociopolitical issues – but by the same token, other people could probably accuse Wuorinen or other composers of their own resorting to well-worn tropes.

The Roots (despite The Jimmy Fallon Show) come close to what you are looking for. D'Angelo is also very good, although his music is a Hip-Hop/R&B stylistic mix.  Also, the Native Tongues "is a collective of late 1980s and early 1990s hip-hop artists known for their positive-minded, good-natured Afrocentric lyrics, and for pioneering the use of eclectic sampling and later jazz-influenced beats. Its principal members are the Jungle Brothers, De La Soul, and A Tribe Called Quest. The collective was also closely tied to the Universal Zulu Nation." (wiki)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 07:39:00 AM by San Antone »

Offline CRCulver

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #293 on: June 12, 2018, 07:58:55 AM »
The Roots (despite The Jimmy Fallon Show) come close to what you are looking for. D'Angelo is also very good, although his music is a Hip-Hop/R&B stylistic mix.  Also, the Native Tongues "is a collective of late 1980s and early 1990s hip-hop artists known for their positive-minded, good-natured Afrocentric lyrics, and for pioneering the use of eclectic sampling and later jazz-influenced beats. Its principal members are the Jungle Brothers, De La Soul, and A Tribe Called Quest. The collective was also closely tied to the Universal Zulu Nation." (wiki)

The artists you mention totally stick to the tropes I mentioned: they do a great deal of rapping about rapping. And there is either braggadocio or, its twin, rapping about being motivated and focused to eventually become someone great. You think the Roots don’t do this, seriously? To give one of innumerable examples, look at "The Fire", where Black Thought raps: "I never show signs of fatigue or turn tired / Cause I'm the definition of tragedy turned triumph / It's David and Goliath, I made it to the eye of the storm" Etc. etc. I just don’t want to constantly hear people talk about how great they are. Humility is a virtue.

Plus, I still consider Afrocentrism to be a representation of an American sociopolitical issue (namely black empowerment through reconnecting with a heritage they felt violently disconnected from).

What I would really like is hip-hop with lyrics as totally abstract or hermetic (but evocative and heartfelt) as e.g. Paul Celan, Scott Walker’s work on Climate of Hunter, or certain Bowie songs. Is it out there?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 08:08:35 AM by CRCulver »

Baron Scarpia

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #294 on: June 12, 2018, 08:18:29 AM »
What I would really like is hip-hop with lyrics as totally abstract or hermetic (but evocative and heartfelt) as e.g. Paul Celan, Scott Walker’s work on Climate of Hunter, or certain Bowie songs. Is it out there?

Do I read this right, David Bowie? You want rap to descend to the level of idiotic Bowie songs?   ;D

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #295 on: June 12, 2018, 08:19:52 AM »
Put on your red shoes and dance the blues . . . .
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Baron Scarpia

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #296 on: June 12, 2018, 08:21:48 AM »
Put on your red shoes and dance the blues . . . .

My bad, I forgot that example of high poetry.  :D

"I know when to go out, I know when to stay in, get things done."

Advice to live by.  8)

Offline San Antone

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #297 on: June 12, 2018, 08:27:49 AM »
The artists you mention totally stick to the tropes I mentioned: they do a great deal of rapping about rapping. And there is either braggadocio or, its twin, rapping about being motivated and focused to eventually become someone great. You think the Roots don’t do this, seriously? To give one of innumerable examples, look at "The Fire", where Black Thought raps: "I never show signs of fatigue or turn tired / Cause I'm the definition of tragedy turned triumph / It's David and Goliath, I made it to the eye of the storm" Etc. etc. I just don’t want to constantly hear people talk about how great they are. Humility is a virtue.

Plus, I still consider Afrocentrism to be a representation of an American sociopolitical issue (namely black empowerment through reconnecting with a heritage they felt violently disconnected from).

What I would really like is hip-hop with lyrics as totally abstract or hermetic (but evocative and heartfelt) as e.g. Paul Celan, Scott Walker’s work on Climate of Hunter, or certain Bowie songs. Is it out there?

You cite "rapping about being motivated and focused" as a negative?  I haven't listened to this music in a while, but as I remember it, Roots and Tribe Called Quest, and others among these groups, spin Afrocentrism with a positive message instead being primarily anti-White.  And D'Angelo doesn't do any of this, most of his songs are relationship oriented and lately narratives, which are very creative. 

What you don't even mention is the music.  There is so much more going on than most hip hop, it transcends the genre.

But it sounds like you are looking for hip hop without Blacks.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 08:37:08 AM by San Antone »

Offline CRCulver

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #298 on: June 12, 2018, 08:38:20 AM »
Put on your red shoes and dance the blues . . . .

That part of Bowie’s career is widely seen as a lyrical nadir precisely because he had done better things elsewhere at other times. But I believe his lyrics on songs like "Heat" or "The Motel" or "Sons of the Silent Age" are strong, and they are the sort of thing I would like to find in hip-hop because I am not adverse to hip-hop as a musical form, only its lyrical tropes.

And San Antone’s accusation that I am looking for hip-hop without blacks is out of order. If I say I am looking for hip-hop without those tropes, then San Antone seems to be suggesting that African-American artists could only provide those tropes, and that strikes me as appallingly racist. There is no reason that African-Americans, too, could not turn their hand to more abstract or hermetic lyrics.

snyprrr

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #299 on: June 12, 2018, 08:41:20 AM »
The artists you mention totally stick to the tropes I mentioned: they do a great deal of rapping about rapping. And there is either braggadocio or, its twin, rapping about being motivated and focused to eventually become someone great. You think the Roots don’t do this, seriously? To give one of innumerable examples, look at "The Fire", where Black Thought raps: "I never show signs of fatigue or turn tired / Cause I'm the definition of tragedy turned triumph / It's David and Goliath, I made it to the eye of the storm" Etc. etc. I just don’t want to constantly hear people talk about how great they are. Humility is a virtue.

Plus, I still consider Afrocentrism to be a representation of an American sociopolitical issue (namely black empowerment through reconnecting with a heritage they felt violently disconnected from).

What I would really like is hip-hop with lyrics as totally abstract or hermetic (but evocative and heartfelt) as e.g. Paul Celan, Scott Walker’s work on Climate of Hunter, or certain Bowie songs. Is it out there?

Thankfully, it is the Wuorinen Thread that is being sullied with the mention of Lamar. Did this guy reallywin the Pulitzer? Well, I guess in an age where BarryO can get it fo' nuthin', then it is a fait acc... I was intrigued by this Lamar, and this song 'Humble', and I thought it was going to be some kind of meditation... lol,...

but, noooooooooooo...

LOL, issa da b**** das needs 2B humble, yo,...

yea, ok, ... as CRC says, tropi tropi tropi,... victim ... Lamar, what in all seriousness have YOU overcome?


CHAD- really,... this Lamar guy?


Even all the Blaxploitation Stars of the 70s agree that the 'Black Thing' was done by... 1973... by 1975 it over for us all anyway (Eagles First World Tour... 'The Omen' for real!!!!!)...


seriously...look at the 'Tall Israekli' who basically rules the hiphop world... NOTHING in BlackMusic&Entertainment gets passed the "movers and shakers of the entertainment industry"...


This is what Charley gets for Brokeback!! :laugh:


He shoulda done 'Ferguson'.... sorry Charley




SERIOUSLY PEOPLE, we're living in a POSTPost-Modern world in its 3rd or 7th wave,... even  GoodStuff suxx now... no reeeally good stuff is allowed, we have entered the Age of Global Social Policing.

WHY IS ANY OF THIS QUESTIONED, or taken seriously, or anything? ALL MEDIA is now compromised....

PUBLISHERS WILL START EDITING CHOPIN to make it eeeasier for the ModernStupid  to feel like they also get a participation trophy in history's long history of history.



oh dear, now what have I done? :-[