Conductors

[Steve]

Orchestra musicians will often do that on purpose to test a new guest conductor's mettle.

Really, how obnoxious...

[Iago]

Seems that Boulez has a little bit of Fritz Reiner in him.
Reiner was loathed by the members of his orchestras. But they had such respect for his musicianship and ability to bring out the best in them, that they would have gladly walked on hot coals for him.

I have no proof regarding this next statement, but I don't think that musicians would do the same for Boulez.
Boulez strikes me as being more the "Critical Pedagogue" than the type of conductor able to mold a performance with loving care and respect for his musicians.  Just my OPINION!!!

[MishaK]

I have no proof regarding this next statement, but I don't think that musicians would do the same for Boulez.
Boulez strikes me as being more the "Critical Pedagogue" than the type of conductor able to mold a performance with loving care and respect for his musicians.  Just my OPINION!!!

I don't know why the former would necessarily have to exclude the latter. If you have a chance, try to catch the video of the live performance of the Firebird with the CSO from the Cologne MusikTriennale 2000. If that isn't loving care and mutual respect, I don't know what is.

[M forever]

M forever: you sound as if you have seen this DVD. I have seen it too, - and just watched it again, digital camera at the ready! The trumpeter who was asked by Boulez to play a G was the very young one - s. screen shot -.

Looks like we are talking about two different scenes. I don't remember the one in the screenshot, probably because if that is what he wanted to tune is not something so special. It's just an open 5th, easy to hear. But the other scene I described with the few wrong notes in the middle of an atonal thicket totally knocked me out. That is astounding. Incidentally, that was the same trumpet player. He was probably nervous and a little insecure, as he was still fairly new with the orchestra at the time. It may not have helped to make his day better that, after the wrong notes got sorted out, someone in the orchestra says very audibly "warum nicht gleich so?" ("why couldn't you do that right the first time").

Personally I don't care if the conductor has a 'surgical' ear. That may very well be his only attribute. What he communicates to the players is what counts.

If the conductor does not have an idea of the piece which is so precise that he can hear exactly in his head what the music should sound like (and therefore notice immediately when it doesn't), he doesn't *have* anything of value to communicate. Whipping up a little "excitement" is not good conducting. Good conducting is if the man with the stick knows and understands the piece deeply and has a conception of it which is so developed that it makes total sense. If he has that kind of conception, then he can also hear when what they play are not the notes written in the score.
Otherwise, he is just a poser who has no business standing in front of professional musicians and waving a little stick at them.

Seems that Boulez has a little bit of Fritz Reiner in him.
Reiner was loathed by the members of his orchestras. But they had such respect for his musicianship and ability to bring out the best in them, that they would have gladly walked on hot coals for him.

Boulez is a completely different kind of conductor. He is always friendly and calm, from what I have heard and seen, the respect he is given by musicians is earned by his deep professionality and the respectful way he treats musicians. He is very demanding, but I have never heard that he terrorizes musicians.

Really, how obnoxious...

Not at all. Every single of the musicians in any professional orchestra has won an audition over sometimes dozens and dozens of competitors, made it through one or two years of his/her trial period, and is required to play difficult pieces well day in and day out. If they can't play the right notes, they can't work. If a conductor can't hear wrong notes, he has no business being a conductor. That is just as much a basic requirement of his job as the musicians have to actually be able to play the right notes (at least) on their instruments. There are many, many hollow posers and impostors on the podium. It is much easier to fake being a conductor than being a musician.

I have a couple of musicians tell me the exact same thing, and also telling me that conductors like Neemi Jarvi is the total opposite. As a joke some musicians would play the wrong notes and Jarvi had no idea whatsoever. I was at a dinner party and the musicians were joking about it.

I am not surprised. It is very obvious from many of his recordings that he often doesn't know the pieces he conducts well, he just waves the orchestra through more or less effectively, but many musical details get overlooked and his performances rarely have arecognizeable concept.

[Maciek]

Lis, I'm merging this with the old "Conductors" topic that you missed (it's quite similar). If you decide I'm not allowed to mess with your thread you can just split it again...

[Lilas Pastia]

If the conductor does not have an idea of the piece which is so precise that he can hear exactly in his head what the music should sound like (and therefore notice immediately when it doesn't), he doesn't *have* anything of value to communicate. Whipping up a little "excitement" is not good conducting. Good conducting is if the man with the stick knows and understands the piece deeply and has a conception of it which is so developed that it makes total sense. If he has that kind of conception, then he can also hear when what they play are not the notes written in the score.
Otherwise, he is just a poser who has no business standing in front of professional musicians and waving a little stick at them.

Nobody denies that, and it wasn't what I was writing about anyway. I was referring to technically outstanding conductors who deliver emotionally sterile performances. Objective knowledge does not necessarily translate into what is referred to as an outstanding performance (whatever the term implies). As a listener I feel more cheated by that kind of poser than by the other one. I have no idea if to a professional musician that Munch clip communicates anything, but as a listener, I find it outstanding.

[uffeviking]

Lis, I'm merging this with the old "Conductors" topic that you missed (it's quite similar). If you decide I'm not allowed to mess with your thread you can just split it again...

My most sincere and grateful thanks, dear Maciek and alert fellow moderator! 

I actually had looked at Michel's - BTW where is he? - but thought the thread was restricted to the ones he listed. D'uh! 

[Harry Collier]

My father recounted to me a rehearsal by the LSO of Beethoven's Fifth in the 1950s (with a conductor whose name I forget). The first movement starts before the bar, and the conductor had many false starts trying to begin the piece. In the end, an exasperated orchestra member shouted out: "Just drop your bloody hand, then we'll do the rest".

[Iago]

Lilas Pastia,

    Those "you tube" excerpts with Munch conducting feature the Boston Symphony Orch IN PERFORMANCE. Only the rehearsal segment is with the Hungarian Orchestra.
And just as an aside. I wonder why Boulez was NEVER invited to conduct the Boston Symphony?  i can't imagine that he was ever invited and turned down the invitation. And I'm not too certain that he was ever invited to Philadelphia, either.

[Iago]

My father recounted to me a rehearsal by the LSO of Beethoven's Fifth in the 1950s (with a conductor whose name I forget). The first movement starts before the bar, and the conductor had many false starts trying to begin the piece. In the end, an exasperated orchestra member shouted out: "Just drop your bloody hand, then we'll do the rest".

I don't doubt your father. But I do doubt that ANY orchestra member would shout that way. That would have been the height of disrespect. I thought that the "English" were known for their courteousness?

[Steve]

Not at all. Every single of the musicians in any professional orchestra has won an audition over sometimes dozens and dozens of competitors, made it through one or two years of his/her trial period, and is required to play difficult pieces well day in and day out. If they can't play the right notes, they can't work. If a conductor can't hear wrong notes, he has no business being a conductor. That is just as much a basic requirement of his job as the musicians have to actually be able to play the right notes (at least) on their instruments. There are many, many hollow posers and impostors on the podium. It is much easier to fake being a conductor than being a musician.

That is really for the professional committee that hires for the Conductor to decide. It is not for the performers to "mess with" a conductor during practice. That's obnoxious. Does that mean that I have a problem with having high expectations for conductors? Of course, not.

[Harry Collier]

I don't doubt your father. But I do doubt that ANY orchestra member would shout that way. That would have been the height of disrespect. I thought that the "English" were known for their courteousness?

Professionals don't tolerate amateurs for too long. At around the same 10 year period, the LSO downed bows and reeds and went on strike for one conductor; I THINK (50 years on) my father said it was Bernard Herrrman (an American from Hollywood). But this may just be a jumbled recollection). Anyway, sometimes enough becomes enough.

[knight66]

I saw musicians playing up conductors in various ways. In rehearsal the BBC SO clearly decided they did not think much of Sir David Willcocks. The trombones and trumpets swapped instruments and fooled around. The timps guy stood with arms folded when Willcocks tried to bring him in and he then simply left the platform. I have no idea what it was all about. Willcocks was unfailingly polite and simply raised his eyebrows.

I saw Abbado given a very hard time by his brass players of the LSO. The off-stage guys went to the pub part way through a rehearsal, there was quite a fuss about that one. Abbado was very angry at how some of the musicians behaved, he walked off to cool down. The performance however was as exciting and electric as could be imagined. This was the same orchestra that decided to get back at Carreras when he said his fluffs were caused by dropped pencils. Abbado and the singer were then subjected to a barrage of pencil-dropping whenever he opened his mouth. In a way Carreras asked for it, but the players did not have to give it.

It usually seems to be the brass who are at the centre of trouble. I do recall two posting polo mints down one french horn during rehearsal, one of the London Orchestras, but I do not remember which one.

Mike

[jochanaan]

...It usually seems to be the brass who are at the centre of trouble...

Well, of course!  They get bored waiting two hundred measures for their single fortissimo chord.

[M forever]

Nobody denies that, and it wasn't what I was writing about anyway. I was referring to technically outstanding conductors who deliver emotionally sterile performances. Objective knowledge does not necessarily translate into what is referred to as an outstanding performance (whatever the term implies). As a listener I feel more cheated by that kind of poser than by the other one. I have no idea if to a professional musician that Munch clip communicates anything, but as a listener, I find it outstanding.

What is musically good and bad or emotionally communicating is really a different thing. A technically "outstanding" conductor who hears everything and knows how to rehearse and direct the orchestra is not a different kind of poser. If he knows his stuff, has good ears, knows the score and has a concept for it that he can bring across in rehearsal, then he is not a poser at all. You or me may not like the interpretation that results from that, but one has to separate that from technical qualities.
But if someone does not have these technical qualities and knowledge, then he also can not develop a valuable interpretation of a complex orchestral piece and direct 80 musicians performing it. Whipping up a little excitement and relying on the orchestra to carry the conductor through the piece so that he looks good is not good conducting - although some good performances sometimes happen despite a bad conductor. But only when the orchestra comes through in spite of him. Which can be really dificult.

That is really for the professional committee that hires for the Conductor to decide. It is not for the performers to "mess with" a conductor during practice. That's obnoxious. Does that mean that I have a problem with having high expectations for conductors? Of course, not.

That's not the way it works. Whatever the "professional" committee decides, if the conducotr is not good, then there is no way he can get respect and professional cooperation from dozens of musicians who are all better than he is. It's not like in other jobs where an incompetent guy gets hired for a management position, the employees think that sucks but return to their cubicles and carry on as before. The orchestra-conductor dynamic is totally different and a bad conductor can be very, very, very, very frustrating for good musicians to deal with. But it is harder to avoid dealing with him than with the incompetent manager.
Although real "messing with the conductor" incidences occur and they make for better stories, that rarely happens in good professional orchestras in the way of "let'stest this guy and give him a hard time". It does sometimes, but not often, I would say.
And that's not even necessary. It is hard to describe, but when a conductor does not know his stuff, it becomes apparent very quickly, and after only a short while longer, it is pretty much clear if he knows what he is doing or not. If yes, it can make a huge difference in the ensemble playing experience. If not, then it can be a very major pain in the ass and immensely frustrating. Musicians most of the time don't even need to "test" conductors - it often shows very quickly if they are good or not.

I saw Abbado given a very hard time by his brass players of the LSO. The off-stage guys went to the pub part way through a rehearsal, there was quite a fuss about that one.

That is grossly unprofessional. Whatever musicians think of a particular conductor (and Abbado is usually well liked by most musicians that I know), walking off is a completely different thing. They get paid to be there and play. There are plenty of musicians around London, especially for extra jobs like this. In a case like this, the musicians should not get rehired for other jobs, or written up and warned if they are employed by the orchestra.

[jochanaan]

...Musicians most of the time don't even need to "test" conductors - it often shows very quickly if they are good or not.

Indeed.  It usually takes about half a minute for us to find out whether the man with the stick knows his stuff.

What can be very very frustrating, though, is when a conductor obviously knows his music and has good ideas about it, but his/her stick or hand technique is not up to the challenges!  I've worked with such, both old and young.  And, as M and others have pointed out, if an orchestra player screws up or has insufficient technique, everybody knows who to blame--but if a conductor's technique is bad, too often he blames the orchestra.  Sometimes I've nearly asked, "Shall we follow your beat, or do what you've said?"

And if a conductor tries to conduct me when I'm playing a solo passage, I just ignore him.

[knight66]

Abbado was always well respected and I don't know why that Lohengrin concert caused problems with the brass. I do recall they were indeed bought in for the concert, the full normal brass compliment remained on the platform. I well remember Abbado's suppressed fury. He was not one to just let go and display his anger, but before the concert itself some of the orchestra said a few things to us and there had been real trouble about the incidence. I certainly experienced a number of concerts with the hit and miss kind of conductors, some almost disasters and others quite memorable. But of course, we all preferred to be working with people who knew how to get what they wanted.

Mike

[M forever]

What can be very very frustrating, though, is when a conductor obviously knows his music and has good ideas about it, but his/her stick or hand technique is not up to the challenges!  I've worked with such, both old and young.

Yes, that's too bad, but there is nothing one can do about that. I may have great ideas about certain trumpet pieces, too, unfortunately though, I can't play the trumpet, so I don't try to. What some conductors do is really just as ridiculous as if someone took an instrument he can't play and started scratching or blowing around wildly and randomly. Only that that is immediately obvious as idiotic to everybody, while a lot of basically totally incompetent conductors are allowed to get away with way too much.

And, as M and others have pointed out, if an orchestra player screws up or has insufficient technique, everybody knows who to blame--but if a conductor's technique is bad, too often he blames the orchestra.  Sometimes I've nearly asked, "Shall we follow your beat, or do what you've said?"

I have actually said that a few times. I guess that doesn't surprise you... 0:)

One should always try to cooperate with the conductor, but sometimes, it's just not possible and the problems aren't a matter of different views about the music or something like that - that doesn't really matter anyway, because an important part of the craft of the orchestral musician is to be able to grasp and realize many different concepts, after all, if everybody did what they wanted, there would be no ensemble play - it is simply that the man with the stick does not belong in front of an orchestra.

I have never really been in a situation in which orchestral musicians were malicious, with most conductors, they play better than he conducts, but sometimes, it is just too much. Some basically OK conductors are also intolerable because they have mental problems and insecurities which they try to take out on the orchestra. I witnessed an amazing scene once in the Staatskapelle Weimar when the MD, Hans Peter Frank (who was widely called "Hackepeter" instead of Hans Peter, hacken means the same in German as "to hack", and "Hackepeter" means minced meat... ) who was not such a bad conductor when he pulled himself together but also had a very massive maestro complex, started picking on the bass section and made some unprofessional and unfriendly remarks. The musicians had been used to just say nothing and overlook such remarks during Eastern Block times because he was "well connected" with communist party officials, but this was after the reunification and some had just had enough and were ready to try the new freedom. So the principal bass told him "you don't talk to us like that, if you have something to criticize, tell us in musical terms and we will improve it". What followed was highly interesting. Frank just stared at him in disbelief, gasped a few times but couldn't find any words, turned red in the face and collapsed on the podium...he was carried out with the whole orchestra looking on in amazed silence. The rehearsal was interrupted and someone sent over to the music academy (which is 5 minutes away) to  get the conducting professor who was a good professional "Kapellmeister" (and that is actually unusual for conducting professors at music academies since they often end up with the failed maestros). He took the program over and it was actually much better than most of the concerts with Frank (IIRC, that was DSCH10).

[Lilas Pastia]

I find watching videos of orchestral works really fascinating. There's so much variety of attitudes, podium behaviour and display of baton(less) technique. It's amazing to see different conductors doing the same piece in different ways.

I was a bit puzzled by Dudamel conducting Mahler 3 at La Scala. It seems like he's reacting to the music instead of conducting it. Or maybe I just pay too much attention to his face, and I can't interpret the hand language anyways .

Although the 5th movement is much less of a showpiece, Haitink in Berlin give a totally different portrait of a conductor at work in this same symphony (not many conductor shots, though. I guess Haitink is less interesting to watch than Dudamel...)   For Haitink in more demonstrative stuff, there's also this Berin rite of Spring which I find very interesting.

[Harry Collier]

I remember a neighbour, a clarinet player in the Philharmonia in the 1970s, saying to me once: "We don't mind who conducts us as long as it isn't Menuhin".