Mozart Piano Concertos

Started by Mark, September 08, 2007, 03:01:39 PM

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dirkronk

#420
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on March 29, 2011, 01:14:30 PM
De Larrocha hasn't been on my radar for years now and until this Mozart PC encounter I've given her zero attention. Things are looking up for her now however on the strength of this performance.

There are some areas of repertoire where De Larrocha is peerless. The Spanish piano composers in particular (Albeniz, Granados, Turina, de Falla, etc.) are simply astonishing in her hands...I particularly like her early Hispavox recordings, though her later versions for Decca and other labels are quite good, as well. The recent EMI Icon box set collects almost all those Hispavox recordings, BTW, and I've been toying with its purchase to replace my ancient VoxBox and other LP versions.

However, it would be silly to pigeonhole her in the Spanish realm. At the same time that Vox came out with her Hispavox items, several decades back, they also came out with a VoxBox (or two?) by her called "Piano Personalities" (or some such title) which included many  mainly-short items of more central European piano repertoire, and quite impressive it was. While recording for Decca, she put out a number of fine recordings, and standouts (IMO) included an LP of Surinach and Montsalvage concertos, and a mixed album released as a kind of birthday or anniversary tribute that had a Mozart sonata and assorted other midstream goodies.

Over the later years of her career, she did Mozart a LOT, so I'm not surprised it was a Mozart concerto that captured your attention. At her very best here, she rivals (though, honestly, never truly surpasses) my typical choices for this music, Clara Haskil and Lili Kraus, and generally De Larrocha gets excellent modern recording, to boot. Worth serious listening, in short. However, she performed a great deal live, in settings like the Mostly Mozart festival venues, and while her playing is seldom less than very, VERY good, her accompanying orchestral groups vary in their quality of ensemble and finesse (some great, some not so great), so I'd try to listen in advance before plunking down big bucks for a bunch of her recordings of that type. Just sayin'...

Cheers.

Dirk


Mandryka

Quote from: dirkronk on March 30, 2011, 06:29:50 AM
There are some areas of repertoire where De Larrocha is peerless. The Spanish piano composers in particular (Albeniz, Granados, Turina, de Falla, etc.) are simply astonishing in her hands...I particularly like her early Hispavox recordings, though her later versions for Decca and other labels are quite good, as well. The recent EMI Icon box set collects almost all those Hispavox recordings, BTW, and I've been toying with its purchase to replace my ancient VoxBox and other LP versions.

However, it would be silly to pigeonhole her in the Spanish realm. At the same time that Vox came out with her Hispavox items, several decades back, they also came out with a VoxBox (or two?) by her called "Piano Personalities" (or some such title) which included many  mainly-short items of more central European piano repertoire, and quite impressive it was. While recording for Decca, she put out a number of fine recordings, and standouts (IMO) included an LP of Surinach and Montsalvage concertos, and a mixed album released as a kind of birthday or anniversary tribute that had a Mozart sonata and assorted other midstream goodies.

Over the later years of her career, she did Mozart a LOT, so I'm not surprised it was a Mozart concerto that captured your attention. At her very best here, she rivals (though, honestly, never truly surpasses) my typical choices for this music, Clara Haskil and Lili Kraus, and generally De Larrocha gets excellent modern recording, to boot. Worth serious listening, in short. However, she performed a great deal live, in settings like the Mostly Mozart festival venues, and while her playing is seldom less than very, VERY good, her accompanying orchestral groups vary in their quality of ensemble and finesse (some great, some not so great), so I'd try to listen in advance before plunking down big bucks for a bunch of her recordings of that type. Just sayin'...

Cheers.

Dirk

Let me just pose this conundrum -- which are the best transfers of those Hospavox recordings?

All the world love Larrocha's Albeniz except me it seems -- to my ears she makes the music sound to banally picturesque. Don't get me wrong -- I like Iberia in the hands of others.

But so deafening is the praise for her that I suspect that I've just not heard her at her best. And the consensus is that those Hispavox recordings are her best. Hence my question.

You see if I read through old discussions on rmcr, I just can't work out which CDs are the Hispovox ones.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Drasko

Quote from: Mandryka on March 30, 2011, 07:18:31 AM
All the world love Larrocha's Albeniz except me it seems -- to my ears she makes the music sound to banally picturesque.

At least that's easy to remedy - just get yourself new pair of ears.

QuoteBut so deafening is the praise for her that I suspect that I've just not heard her at her best. And the consensus is that those Hispavox recordings are her best. Hence my question.

In Hispavox period her emphasis seems to be (to me) on rhythm, articulation is pointier, playing drier. In Decca recordings emphasis is more on harmony and color, her touch is softer, textures richer more impressionistic. it's worth hearing both. I'm not very familiar with her RCA period recordings.
Latest EMI Icon release is probably best mastering for hispavox recordings.

DavidRoss

I first became aware of Laroccha thanks to a terrific Mozart concerto recording I heard on the car radio (I forget which one...it was many years ago).  Her Decca (London) Albéniz Iberia/Suite Española/Navarra is among my favorite piano recordings.

When I see vids of her playing, I'm always amazed that anyone with such stubby fingers can become such a gifted pianist.  Just sayin'.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Mandryka

Quote from: Drasko on March 30, 2011, 07:51:41 AM
At least that's easy to remedy - just get yourself new pair of ears.



Thank you for that kind advice.

Quote from: Drasko on March 30, 2011, 07:51:41 AM
Latest EMI Icon release is probably best mastering for hispavox recordings.

Are you absolutely sure that the Icon box has her Hispavox?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

dirkronk

Quote from: Mandryka on March 30, 2011, 07:18:31 AM
Let me just pose this conundrum -- which are the best transfers of those Hospavox recordings?

Sorry, Mandryka. Don't know. I have only LP copies, on Vox pressings (which don't inspire expectations of great sonics anyway--but based on reactions of others, I may be enjoying some mitigation of the dryness they refer to). Meanwhile, I'm looking for more confidence-building input re the Icon box transfers myself, before deciding to purchase.

Quote from: Mandryka on March 30, 2011, 07:18:31 AM
All the world love Larrocha's Albeniz except me it seems -- to my ears she makes the music sound to banally picturesque. Don't get me wrong -- I like Iberia in the hands of others.

Sounds to me like you just don't like her approach, period, and are looking for something different (non-picturesque?) in the interp you want. Hey, it happens. I'm certainly that way about Arrau: love much of his work from early in his career (pre-mid-1960s) and like very little in his later career, save live performances. And, as you say, "all the world loves" Arrau's Beethoven sonata cycle from the mid-60s, especially his Waldstein, while I'm just tepid on the cycle as a whole (I do like some individual sonatas therein) and CAN NOT STAND his Waldstein. Go figure.

Getting back to De Larrocha, I do agree that her Hispavox take is picturesque, but I rather expect that in the Albeniz and similar music...and for me, it doesn't rate the "banal" modifier. I listen and it just sounds right to me (and has for 30-some-odd years, so I guess my taste isn't changing much). I definitely agree with Drasko about her Decca recordings of these works being worth the listen; I've heard only snippets from the later RCA stuff and am rather less enthusiastic with her presentation there (but need to hear more to give a thumbs up or down).

FWIW. Hopefully, we'll find someone here who's heard the Icon box and can give an analysis.

Cheers,

Dirk


Drasko

Quote from: Mandryka on March 30, 2011, 09:34:36 AM
Thank you for that kind advice.

Glad I could help.  8)

Quote
Are you absolutely sure that the Icon box has her Hispavox?

http://www.emiclassics.com/releaseabout.php?rid=49968

Mandryka

#427
Quote from: dirkronk on March 30, 2011, 09:45:26 AM
Sorry, Mandryka. Don't know. I have only LP copies, on Vox pressings (which don't inspire expectations of great sonics anyway--but based on reactions of others, I may be enjoying some mitigation of the dryness they refer to). Meanwhile, I'm looking for more confidence-building input re the Icon box transfers myself, before deciding to purchase.

Sounds to me like you just don't like her approach, period, and are looking for something different (non-picturesque?) in the interp you want. Hey, it happens. I'm certainly that way about Arrau: love much of his work from early in his career (pre-mid-1960s) and like very little in his later career, save live performances. And, as you say, "all the world loves" Arrau's Beethoven sonata cycle from the mid-60s, especially his Waldstein, while I'm just tepid on the cycle as a whole (I do like some individual sonatas therein) and CAN NOT STAND his Waldstein. Go figure.

Getting back to De Larrocha, I do agree that her Hispavox take is picturesque, but I rather expect that in the Albeniz and similar music...and for me, it doesn't rate the "banal" modifier. I listen and it just sounds right to me (and has for 30-some-odd years, so I guess my taste isn't changing much). I definitely agree with Drasko about her Decca recordings of these works being worth the listen; I've heard only snippets from the later RCA stuff and am rather less enthusiastic with her presentation there (but need to hear more to give a thumbs up or down).

FWIW. Hopefully, we'll find someone here who's heard the Icon box and can give an analysis.

Cheers,

Dirk

Ok. Delete banal.

When the music gets very complicated in Iberia -- like in El Albaicin -- I do much prefer others:  Orozco mostly, who make the music sound more exciting and interesting to me. The person who I am keen to hear in Iberia is Loriod, but the CD has never turned up. I love this music.

Have you heard Arrau's earlier Waldsteins? They're the ones I don't like! There's an EMI one and a Columbia one. The Philips one is, for me, very good  for the first movement climax.




Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

dirkronk

Quote from: Mandryka on March 30, 2011, 10:17:55 AM
When the music gets very complicated in Iberia -- like in El Albaicin -- I do much prefer others:  Orozco mostly, who make the music sound more exciting and interesting to me. The person who I am keen to hear in Iberia is Loriod, but the CD has never turned up. I love this music.

I'm making note of these names. Actually, Orozco I know, but only very slightly and not in this music, so I need to investigate. Loriod I don't recall hearing at all. Time to do some exploring, apparently.

As for Arrau's other Waldsteins, I have the EMI, heard the Columbia years back. Meh. I know they're different, but I'm not any crazier about them than I am about the Philips mid-60s version (which is the one that gets praised so much). I've bought and re-bought that particular recording (the Philips) at least three times on vinyl and once on CD, always at the urgent recommendation of Arrau fans who assure me that "this time you'll hear what's great about it." Hasn't happened yet. Part of the problem is what I listen for: line-for-line articulation of phrasing (which Arrau USUALLY is great at, but not to my ears here; if this were ALL I were going for, Elly Ney rules...but she's too old in her version to hold the whole thing together), intelligent and smoothly-executed segues (Solomon is so far ahead of Arrau in this respect that I have a hard time even listening to Claudio), and, where the pianist really has the chops, the full "all one piece" linearity carried through the sonata (again, Solomon's my fave for this aspect, but there are others I like as well: Tomsic, Gilels live, et al.). Guess I'm just not cut out to be an Arrau-uber-alles type.

On the other hand, his concert stuff is almost always special. His live Liszt Transcendental Etudes...extraordinary.

Cheers,

Dirk

Mandryka

#429
Quote from: dirkronk on March 31, 2011, 07:15:44 AM

On the other hand, his concert stuff is almost always special. His live Liszt Transcendental Etudes...extraordinary.

Cheers,

Dirk

I haven't heard the live TEs -- what is the recording?

One live Arrau I enjoyed a lot recently was his Beethoven Op 27/1.

I'll listen to Elly Ney's Waldstien again -- I have it. I like her  pre war recordings. I found her Trout recenly in an excellent amateur transfer here -

http://78.kenyszer.com

Worth getting, even though it's not my favourite Trout, it is noble and very German. Strub is very good indeed.

The website works but you need to be patient and forgiving  :)

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

MishaK

Quote from: DavidRoss on March 30, 2011, 08:05:32 AM
When I see vids of her playing, I'm always amazed that anyone with such stubby fingers can become such a gifted pianist.  Just sayin'.

Yes. I saw her live some time around 1997 perhaps and she played among other things a stupendous performance of the Bach/Busoni Chaconne with incredibly huge sound from someone so small and old at that time.

dirkronk

Quote from: Mandryka on March 31, 2011, 07:36:54 AM
I haven't heard the live TEs -- what is the recording?

Not sure. My copy is on CD-r given to me as a gift but without specific attributions. I THINK it's the one that was on APR, but not sure.

Re Elly Ney. Thanks for the link: I'll try to check it out this weekend. I have her with Strub  doing some Reger, but not the Trout. Oddly enough, while I have several discs of prewar performances, it's her late recordings that I find intriguing. There are some instances of phrasing in her mid/late '50s Waldstein that are so beautifully and delicately done (and she's not really known for the delicacy thing) that they literally make me catch my breath. OTOH, as I mentioned, this Waldstein is just too fragmented to hold together as an entirety. Pity.
Have you ever listened to her Wanderer Fantasy (the late one, not the 1941 version)? That one DOES hold together, and in an exceptional way.

Cheers,

Dirk

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: dirkronk on March 30, 2011, 06:29:50 AM
Over the later years of her career, she did Mozart a LOT, so I'm not surprised it was a Mozart concerto that captured your attention. At her very best here, she rivals (though, honestly, never truly surpasses) my typical choices for this music, Clara Haskil and Lili Kraus, and generally De Larrocha gets excellent modern recording, to boot. Worth serious listening, in short.

Yes, I seem to remember a spate of Mozart recordings for RCA about fifteen years ago or so. But I hope I could be forgiven for not taking notice of these recordings since the choices in this repertoire are bewildering. But one of the great things about this biz of classical collecting is the opportunity to discover something new, even if it's old! 

I wish I could say more as far as comparisons but since I've only heard the one movement from that Mozart concerto one time I'm not in a position to offer anything substantial. But based on that sampling I'd say De Larrocha prefers a tone that's more muscular than either Kraus or Haskil. That's not to be taken as a slam, mind you, just an observation. It would be interesting to do some A/B comparisons. 

QuoteHowever, she performed a great deal live, in settings like the Mostly Mozart festival venues, and while her playing is seldom less than very, VERY good, her accompanying orchestral groups vary in their quality of ensemble and finesse (some great, some not so great), so I'd try to listen in advance before plunking down big bucks for a bunch of her recordings of that type. Just sayin'...

Noted. Thanks. :)

Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

RJR

Saw Alicia de Larrocha perform a Mozart Piano Concerto in Ottawa, at the National Arts Centre, around 1970. Lucky me.

mjwal

I'm bumping this because having arrived in France for a late summer I picked up - as usual - a copy of Diapason, the record magazine: this double issue (next one in September) includes a 2 CD collection of historical performances of Mozart piano concertos. It contains some very remarkable goodies: 1) K 365 Anda/Haskil, Philharmonia/Galliera 1956 (stereo); K 488 Curzon/Boyd Neel Orch. 1945; K 503 Edwin Fischer/VPO 1946 (live) 2) K459 Haskil/RIAS/Fricsay 1953; K 451 Serkin/NYPO/Mitropoulos 1955; K 466 Serkin/Philadelphia/Ormandy 1951.
I already have the contents of the second disc -- all wonderful, especially a Dionysiac performance of K 466 which Serkin could not match with Szell in 1960(?), and especially the Serkin/Mitropoulos sounds better than the transfer on the disc in my collection -- but the first disc was new to me: K 365 truly moved and impressed me for perhaps the first time, despite Lupu/Perahia: the stereo sound allows us to clearly distinguish and appreciate the different voices of the pianos, played in subtly interactive harmony but with striking individual character by Anda and Haskil -- Curzon's first K 488 is livelier than the later two he recorded, and the Fischer K 503 is overwhelmingly powerful yet richly nuanced. I had at first glance taken it for the 1948 HMV recording with Philharmonia/Krips, but this is a live performance with the VPO conducted from the keyboard, and at the moment I cannot think of any performance with quite the passionate majesty of this. He sometimes plays forcefully along with the orchestra. The July/Aug issue may now be unavailable, but one can order the Indispensables de Diapason from their website for 5 € a go, I believe.
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

Mandryka

#435
Listening to PC 23 again I felt more positive about Serkin Schneider than I did before.

It struck me that there are quite a few very distinctive performances. Giulini and Michelangeli are noble, and Michelangeli's piano tone is everything you would expect. But maybe it lacks angst, and so maybe is a bit shallow. I don't know. It's the angst that Schnabel and Rodzinski showed was there in the music, if you know how to bring it out. That record seems pretty iconic to me, for that reason.

The mono Serkin one with Schneider is interesting because it seemed to capture something of both these extremes -- but when I listened to it again last night I thought there was something about Serkin's rubato which irritated me.

There are some othes I want to hear again -- Howowitz and Giulini, Rubinstein and Wallenstein , the DG one that Michelangeli recorded,  maybe Moravec (which is the best from him?), Sokolov and Pinnock, maybe Lili Kraus. Maybe Pletnev. Maybe Fazil Say. Is there anyone else who you felt was doing something special with the music? 
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Drasko

Quote from: Mandryka on September 28, 2011, 01:31:38 AM
It struck me that there are quite a few very distinctive performances. Giulini and Michelangeli are noble, and Michelangeli's piano tone is everything you would expect. But maybe it lacks angst, and so maybe is a bit shallow. I don't know.

Michelangeli's K488 doesn't work for me either. Too static, particularly in slow movement. Though I don't have the Giulini one but EMI mid 50s with some scrappy Italian band.

QuoteThere are some othes I want to hear again -- Howowitz and Giulini, Rubinstein and Wallenstein , the DG one that Michelangeli recorded,  maybe Moravec (which is the best from him?), Sokolov and Pinnock, maybe Lili Kraus. Maybe Pletnev. Maybe Fazil Say. Is there anyone else who you felt was doing something special with the music?

Horowitz is very fine, Sokolov has lovely middle movement but can't remember much about it otherwise. Casadesus with Szell has always been my favorite.


George

Quote from: Mandryka on September 28, 2011, 01:31:38 AM
There are some othes I want to hear again -- Howowitz and Giulini, Rubinstein and Wallenstein , the DG one that Michelangeli recorded,  maybe Moravec (which is the best from him?), Sokolov and Pinnock, maybe Lili Kraus. Maybe Pletnev. Maybe Fazil Say. Is there anyone else who you felt was doing something special with the music?

Clara Haskil.
"I can't live without music, because music is life." - Yvonne Lefébure

jwinter

Quote from: Drasko on September 28, 2011, 05:32:49 AM
Horowitz is very fine, Sokolov has lovely middle movement but can't remember much about it otherwise. Casadesus with Szell has always been my favorite.

Haven't heard Sokolov, but I definitely agree on Horowitz and Casadesus.  Szell's late Mozart concertos with Casadesus, Serkin, and Fleisher have been living on my iPod for ages, very hard to beat IMO.
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils.
The motions of his spirit are dull as night,
And his affections dark as Erebus.
Let no such man be trusted.

-- William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

George

Quote from: jwinter on September 28, 2011, 06:06:29 AM
Szell's late Mozart concertos with Casadesus, Serkin, and Fleisher have been living on my iPod for ages, very hard to beat IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMRo5XCKddQ
"I can't live without music, because music is life." - Yvonne Lefébure