Thoughts on Arrangements

[pjme]

The HaFaBra (harmony-fanfare-brassband) world, mandolin, guitar orchestras, angklung ensembles, handbell ringers, harmonica groups, percussion orchestras etc. avidly seek and commission arrangements.
The results vary wildly: some are very professional (e.g.Pictures at an exhibition for brass and percussion by Elgar Howarth), others come with lots of doubts (e.g. Ravels Ma mère l'oye arranged for two pianos and percussion by Peter Sadlo) others are just fun or funnily bad and crazy.   Enjoy or cringe....
They all seem to enjoy what they are doing....

[Madiel]

They all seem to enjoy what they are doing....

What musicians do in the privacy of their own homes is none of my business. But when they start doing it in public...

[Mandryka]

Yes that also gives the performer an opportunity to play something they might otherwise not be able to play.

Another example is Bach's arrangements for keyboard of some of Reincken's Hortus Musicus, one of which has been taken up by a favourite piano player (Richter.) For me, it's a pleasure to hear it and I'm glad the arrangement exists and has been performed. In fact in my case, that Bach arrangement led me to the original Reincken, I can't say I prefer it more than the keyboard version in Richter's hands.

  Yet another would be Liszt's Schubert song arrangements, which I enjoy at least as much as the songs themselves (When Sofronitsky plays them. )
 

A slightly more interesting case is the Bach/Vivaldi concerto to organ arrangements. In truth, I've never heard the original Vivaldi, or if I have I forget. But I wonder whether something is changed in a valuable way by having one musician in control, as it were, rather than an ensemble performance. That may lead to a special sort of coherence and integrity in performance (or may not -- this is speculative given my ignorance of the Vivaldi)

[prémont]

Another example is Bach's arrangements for keyboard of some of Reincken's Hortus Musicus...

Bach made his harpsichord and organ solo arrangements of Reinken's Hortus and Vivaldi's concertos as study material for himself (and possibly colleagues) as a means of studying the musical forms especially Vivaldi's concerto form. They were not intended for public performance. Here we therefore have the "practical" argument. I don't think his arrangements make the music more coherent, rather the opposite, as some of the point of the concerto form, which is the alternation between solo and tutti, is to some extent camouflaged. What we enjoy today from hearing his arrangements had no relevance to Bach by then.

On the other hand, his arrangements of his own concertos for violin and strings as concerts for harpsichord and strings are rather experimentation with the possibilities of the harpsichord as a solo instrument in a concert context and were meant for performance.

BTW you ought to listen to the Vivaldi concertos. This will give you a more complete idea of them and of Bach's arrangements.

[Mandryka]

Bach made his harpsichord and organ solo arrangements of Reinken's Hortus and Vivaldi's concertos as study material for himself (and possibly colleagues) as a means of studying the musical forms especially Vivaldi's concerto form. They were not intended for public performance. Here we therefore have the "practical" argument. I don't think his arrangements make the music more coherent, rather the opposite, as some of the point of the concerto form, which is the alternation between solo and tutti, is to some extent camouflaged. What we enjoy today from hearing his arrangements had no relevance to Bach by then.

On the other hand, his arrangements of his own concertos for violin and strings as concerts for harpsichord and strings are rather experimentation with the possibilities of the harpsichord as a solo instrument in a concert context and were meant for performance.

BTW you ought to listen to the Vivaldi concertos. This will give you a more complete idea of them and of Bach's arrangements.

I was partly thinking of a comment you made about 10 years ago or more, when we were talking about Cabezon. Don't forget, I was an elephant in a former life.

The ensemble CDs by Savall and Ensemble Accentus represent arrangements of keyboard music, and the general effect is much like ensemble arrangements of The Art of Fugue. From a superficial point of view the music is made more attractive and "charming" but its integrity is diminished.

But of course, you're right, and I will listen to the original Vivaldi.

[pjme]

Kurtág's now extensive piano collection Játékok (1973-present) is a wonderful illustration of his almost obsessive connection with the past. In countless homages and in memoria, he pays a musical tribute to composers and colleagues whom he respects. The same applies to the collection of piano transcriptions 'From Machaut tot Bach', in which Kurtág displays his respect for illustrious predecessors even more explicitly. Various chorale arrangements from Bach's Orgelbüchlein have a prominent place in it. Not a strange choice since, like Kurtágs Játékok, it was originally intended for pedagogical purposes.

[prémont]

I was partly thinking of a comment you made about 10 years ago or more, when we were talking about Cabezon. Don't forget, I was an elephant in a former life.

The ensemble CDs by Savall and Ensemble Accentus represent arrangements of keyboard music, and the general effect is much like ensemble arrangements of The Art of Fugue. From a superficial point of view the music is made more attractive and "charming" but its integrity is diminished.

I don't think this contradicts my recent post above. Cabezon's tientos and variations are harpsichord music happening mostly at one level while Vivaldi's concertos are ensemble music and meant as such where the point is interplay between soli and tutti. In both cases arrangements for other instruments will at least transform the integrity in a possibly unintended way.

[Jo498]

I am not sure if Beethoven was generally so opposed to arrangements. I think his remark(s) were more about their poor quality. And he usually didn't have time and leisure himself but he did a few of his own works, and some of them not only/mainly for commercial reasons, e.g. the string quartet after the sonata op.14 and the 4hand piano version of the fugue op.133.

But I agree that the practical (and general) use of them is mostly a thing of the past. Some are interesting, at least one instrumentation became far more popular than the original (Pictures at an exhibition) but there seems also a phenomenon of running out of interesting music and thus going for odd arrangements...

[Mandryka]

there seems also a phenomenon of running out of interesting music and thus going for odd arrangements...

What are you thinking of there?

[Mandryka]

One thought is that it's not surprising that composers from the past 50 or 75 years are making arrangements, because there's a sense of rediscovery of the techniques of ancient music, partly because editions have become more easily available for study. You see it reflected in modern music - things like  Louis Andriessen's hoquets and Messiaen's isorhythms. So if you're discovering the music, and it's influencing your own music, it seems perfectly understandable (to me) to want to have a bit of fun by making a transcription of the works you're excited about.

Here's a arrangement of music by Machaut and Binchois by Richard Barrett

And Sciarrino's arrangement of Ockeghem

[Karl Henning]

The results vary wildly: some are very professional (e.g.Pictures at an exhibition for brass and percussion by Elgar Howarth), others come with lots of doubts (e.g. Ravels Ma mère l'oye arranged for two pianos and percussion by Peter Sadlo) others are just fun or funnily bad and crazy.   Enjoy or cringe....
They all seem to enjoy what they are doing ....

And I expect there were those in the audience who enjoyed the performance/presentation, as well.

[Madiel]

I am not sure if Beethoven was generally so opposed to arrangements. I think his remark(s) were more about their poor quality.

Well yes. And? Isn't that what I said in the first place?

You seem to be trying to make a distinction between disliking arrangements in theory and disliking arrangements in practice. If in practice the majority of arrangements are of poor quality, I don't see how the distinction would make any difference. I can't listen to a theoretical arrangement, only one that someone actually makes.

When Beethoven made a string quartet arrangement of one of his piano sonatas, he made significant changes to the music. And that points to the big problem with so many arrangements, that people think instruments are interchangeable WITHOUT it affecting the music. That music consists just of hitting particular notes at particular times, and what you use to hit the notes is irrelevant.

[Karl Henning]

When Beethoven made a string quartet arrangement of one of his piano sonatas, he made significant changes to the music. And that points to the big problem with so many arrangements, that people think instruments are interchangeable WITHOUT it affecting the music. That music consists just of hitting particular notes at particular times, and what you use to hit the notes is irrelevant.

Maybe it was the Golden Age of Junk Arrangements?...

[Madiel]

Maybe it was the Golden Age of Junk Arrangements?...

There was probably a larger market for arrangements than now for reasons already discussed, but I refer you to my previous remarks about pop remixes. Most of them mindlessly apply a beat to music without showing any sign of understanding the music they're defacing. But occasionally you find one that sheds new light on the music, and once in a while they're brilliant.

[atardecer]

Earl Wild - The Art of the Transcription

[atardecer]

I have no problems with transcriptions, I like them. They have at times heightened my appreciation of a work. I don't think they are disrespectful to a composer. I'm not aware of any well known composer stating they did not want others making transcriptions of their music. I am aware of an instance of something essentially opposite to that happening, for example when Albéniz heard guitar transcriptions of his music.

Some people respond more favorably to certain instruments over others. Hearing a transcription of a piece on an instrument that one prefers can give that listener insight and appreciation of a work that may have otherwise gone unnoticed.

A transcription/arrangement cannot harm an original composition, the original will always be there. Transcriptions only add variety and enrich our lives.

[Madiel]

Beethoven didn't quite say that, but he did take on the job himself after being fed up with poor efforts by others.

As for not harming the original... well I disagree. Because I can think of several instances where an arrangement has largely displaced the original in terms of what people listen to. There are works where finding a recording of the original is quite difficult compared to the arrangement. Haydn's Seven Last Words is an example that springs to mind.

[Mandryka]

Possibly of interest, from a review of Philip Thomas's (excellent!) CD Chris Burn - As If

Transcribing Derek Bailey guitar improvisations for solo pianist might seem like a uniquely pointless exercise, one that rubs against the grain of everything Bailey preached about the liquidity of improvised music; sounds that exist in, and for, the moment only. But as pianist Philip Thomas points out in his sleeve note, Chris Burn's transcriptions of material from Bailey's 1991 Solo Guitar Volume 2 give an objectified analysis of the guitarist's practice and aesthetic. Burn developed these piano transcriptions out of an earlier version he made for the improv trio Cranc, and the 'stringiness' of that group's violin, cello, harp line-up has bled through into his piano rethink; Thomas, you fancy, is plucking the keyboard rather than attacking it with his fingers. The most radical departure from Bailey is due to the piano's fixed tuning and temperament: some of those perfect fifths and open thirds, sheathed in overtones and resonant sustain on the guitar, sound dangerously naked on the cleaner-cut piano. As a consequence, light shines on the architectural clarity underlining Bailey's improvisations, and you're sent back to the original record to discover them anew. Surrounding the Bailey transcriptions is a set of Burn's own compositions, which reconcile Henry Cowell and John Cage with Cecil Taylor and Muhal Richard Abrams. As If As, Only The Snow, Pressing and Screenings and the two-piano The Sky A Silver Dissonance (for which Thomas is joined by Kate Ledger) are all scampering and elusive – sounds entirely of the piano apparently happy to escape its confines and history.