People obsessed by categories: "Soundtracks are not classical music!!!"

[Karl Henning]

I suspect that but for his extraordinary fame as a film composer, the concert works written by John Williams would go unnoticed.

That is surely my impression from the concert works of his that I've heard. The corollary is, he would never have been commissioned to write concert works, had he not been a celebrity and unusually well-connected. 

[Karl Henning]

Probably the reason why he gets commissioned for concert works. Having his name on a programme would put bums on seats. Come see the new work by Star Wars composer...and all.

You beat me to it.

[Karl Henning]

It's our old friend The Dunning-Kruger Effect.

Ah, wearing one's ignorance like a badge of honor.

[Karl Henning]

That is not enough. Apparently, as long as there is even one single person in the world who doesn't like what he likes, he'll cry "Snob! Persecution!"

The very raison d'être of this thread.

[Florestan]

The very raison d'être of this thread.

This thread reminds me of two things.

1. A Romanian joke from the 1980s.

The background: in 1924 the Communist Party (nominally "a section of the Third International", a de facto Soviet propaganda and espionage tool) was outlawed and consequently in the following two decades some members were imprisoned. Ceausescu claimed to have been among those but there is no evidence for that, and anyway at the time he was a teenager and a humble, barely literate shoemaker apprentice, not quite the menace for the "bourgeois regime".

The joke:

Q. Is it true that comrade Ceausescu was in the hiding in his youth?
A. Yes, it's true, but in semi-hiding.
Q. How so?
A. Well, he was indeed hiding, but nobody was searching for him.

2. Solzhenitsyn's comment on Tchekhov's Three Sisters (quoted from memory).

'To Moscow! To Moscow! There we shall work! We shall work!' Well, just go working right here and now, damn you, who's stopping you?

[W.A. Mozart]

And I see you side-stepped an important point in my previous post - the need for cherry-picking to make the case for classical-style soundtracks as classical: take out John Williams and just a couple of other names and take out Star Wars and just a dozen or so other soundtracks and your case for these being The New Classical goes from being merely unconvincing to being ridiculous.

First of all, I've never written that the category "soundtrack" is a subcategory of "classical music".

I've written that "soundtrack" is not a genre of music (style) because the soundtracks use many different styles, including classical music.
So, when it comes to classificate soundtracks, we should simply use the same categories that we already use to classificate pieces not composed for soundtracks.

For example...


Hispanic music

Jazz

Classical music

This doesn't mean that you shouldn't also specifiy the category "soundtrack", but it's an additional information, not a category that replaces the other categories.

Since I've never said that all soundtracks are classical, or that most soundtracks are classical, your argument is a strawman.

What I'm saying is that when a soundtrack is classical music, it's indeed classical music. It's absurd to say that something is not classical music only because it's a soundtrack. It's a huge logical fallacy!

What would you say to someone who told you that the soundtrack of Top Gun is not rock because it has been composed for a soundtrack?

And what would you say to someone who said that Lose Yourself is not rap because it has been created for the soundtrack of 8mile?

This is a question for all. @San Antone @Karl Henning @Luke @Florestan @Maestro267

The reality is that you are supporting an absurd thesis and even in an arrogant way (your posts full of personal attacks, things that you don't find in my posts). If someone become aggresive in a discussion it's because he has to compensate the lack of logic in his arguments with personal attacks. Killing the messenger instead of killing the message.



That said, even if the argument "how many soundtracks are classical?" has nothing to do with this debate, because what I'm saying is simply that some soundtracks are classical, I think that you are understimating the size of the phenomenon, because most of the higly praised composers of soundtracks (the ones who have received a lot of Oscar nominations and prizes) have composed many classical soundtracks as well as classical concert works.


Here below a list.


John Williams (examples of classical soundtracks: Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Harry Potter, Schindler's List | examples of classical concert works: Cello Concerto, Violin Concerto No. 1+2)

James Horner (examples of classical soundtracks: Braveheart, Apollo 13, Titanic | examples of classical concert works: Concerto for 4 horns, Spectral Shimmers)

Jerry Goldsmith (examples of classical soundtracks: Mulan | examples of classical concert works: Music for Orchestra)

Danny Elfman (examples of classical soundtracks: Men in Black, Batman | examples of classical concert works: Violin Concerto "Eleven Eleven", Piano Quartet)

Elliot Goldenthal (examples of classical soundtracks: Interview with the Vampire | examples of classical concert works: Symphony in G minor)

Nino Rota (examples of classical soundtracks: The Godfather | examples of concert works: Symphony No. 2 "Anni di Pellegrinaggio")

John Barry (examples of classical soundtracks: Dances with Wolfes | examples of classical concert works: I don't remember the titles, but he has composed concert works too)

John Corigliano (examples of classical soundtracks: The Red Violin | examples of concert works: Piano Concerto)

Philip Glass (examples of classical soundtracks: Walk to School | examples of classical concert works: Symphony No. 4)

Leonard Bernstein (examples of classical soundtracks: On the Waterfront | examples of classical concert works: Symphony No. 3 "Kaddish")



Hans Zimmer (examples of classical soundtracks: The Lion King and Gladiator)

Patrick Doyle (examples of classical soundtracks: Sense and Sensibility and Hamlet)

Elmer Bernstein (examples of classical soundtracks: The Comancheros, The Age of Innocence, Far from Heaven)

Alan Menken (examples of classical soundtracks: The Hunthback of Notre-Dame, Beauty and the Beast, Pocahontas)



When I don't specify classical concert works is not necessarily because they don't exist, but because I'm not aware of them.

The point is that the classical soundtracks are mostly used in films with high budgets, which might be a minority of films, but they are also the kind of films whose soundtracks are higly praised.

If you restrict the category of "soundtrack" to "highly praised soundtrack", I'd say that classical music is a standard. If you restrict the category of "composer of soundtrack" to the category of "highly praised composer of soundtrack", being a composer of classical music is a standard.

[W.A. Mozart]

Yes due to the riveting five theme fugue themed sections which is highly atypical of high Viennese style.  You should spend more time listening carefully to music and less time worrying about labels.

You are confusing style (which describes the aesthetic) with texture (which is a technical element, not an element related to aesthetic).

Now, the style/aesthetic of the fourth movement of Jupiter is the typical one of the classical period.

The fugato (technical element) might be atypical in Classical music, but it was not a new technique: it's a typical baroque technique. So, Mozart brought an old technique into modern music (modern for his time), which is similar to what the composers of classical soundtracks do today.


P.S. How many new classical pieces do you listen to each week?

[Florestan]

The reality is that you are supporting an absurd thesis

Risum teneatis, amici?

and even in an arrogant way (your posts full of personal attacks, things that you don't find in my posts). If someone become aggresive in a discussion it's because he has to compensate the lack of logic in his arguments with personal attacks. Killing the messenger instead of killing the message.

Nobody attacked you, unless you equate exposing flaws in your argumentation and gaps in your knowledge with  personally attacking you.

Have you ever entertained the slightest idea that you might be wrong? Or are you convinced that it's you and you only who is absolutely right and everybody else who disagrees with you is absolutely wrong?

[W.A. Mozart]

Your analogy is deeply flawed.


This could very well take the prize for the silliest, most historically unaware and uninformed claim ever made on GMG.

Just as I said. You seem to be completely unaware that "classical" music did not start with the Baroque, nor did it end with Romanticism.

The first two were absolutely unaware of, and uninterested in, any such classifications. The labels currently attached to their music are not of their own making, not even of their own contemporaries making, and it is highly debatable whether they would have accepted them as meaningful and valid. (FYI, the first label ever attached to Mozart's music --- and Haydn's, for that matter --- was romantic, not classical, cf. E.T.A. Hoffmann)

Basically, what you are saying is that classical music doesn't exist, but if I say that the music of Brahms is classical you have nothing to say, but if I say that the music of John Williams is classical, you polemize.

Can you explain the reason of your double standards? Why do you accept the label "classical music" applied to determined concert works, but not if applied to determined soundtracks?
If classical music is nothing, as you put it, nothing can be classical music.

[Florestan]

Basically, what you are saying is that classical music doesn't exist, but if I say that the music of Brahms is classical you have nothing to say, but if I say that the music of John Williams is classical, you polemize.

No, I don't. I have never expressed my opinion about John Williams' music, or about film music in general. My disagreement concerns you flawed and fluctuating definitions of "classical" music.

[prémont]

What do they have in common the two persons in this picture? Their physical appareance is very different.



Well, the first person is the result of the evolution of the second. It's the same person in different times.

It strikes me that these two people also have quite a lot (physically) in common with your avatar, which raises the question of whether it is you.

[steve ridgway]

It strikes me that these two people also have quite a lot (physically) in common with your avatar, which raises the question of whether it is you.

Having recently watched a documentary on scammers I did a reverse image search and can inform you that the poster is not W.A. Mozart but is in fact Macaulay Culkin who is improbably trying to pass himself off as a 268 year old .

[prémont]

Oh yes, the avatar displays Macaulay Culkin of course. The two other pictures WAM posted displays an actor Jake Lloyd. Lloyd was young Anakin Skywalker in the derided prequel, but his mother says she shielded him from online hate. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia in 2008 and is recovering after a full mental break last year.

[Karl Henning]

Probably the reason why he gets commissioned for concert works. Having his name on a programme would put bums on seats. Come see the new work by Star Wars composer...and all.

Relatedly, it was an excellent marketing move to appoint Williams to the Boston Pops. It was indeed a good fusion of PR savvy and musical ability, for Williams is by all reports an affable gent, and his conducting ability was a good fit for the Pops.

[W.A. Mozart]

It strikes me that these two people also have quite a lot (physically) in common with your avatar, which raises the question of whether it is you.

Oh yes, the avatar displays Macaulay Culkin of course. The two other pictures WAM posted displays an actor Jake Lloyd. Lloyd was young Anakin Skywalker in the derided prequel, but his mother says she shielded him from online hate. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia in 2008 and is recovering after a full mental break last year.

I don't understand your observations.

Jake Lloyd doesn't look like Macaulay Culkin, unless you don't want to reduce the physical appareance to the color of the hair.

If you already knew who are the two boys, why did you ask if my avatar is a picture of myself?

[Florestan]

I don't understand your observations.

Jake Lloyd doesn't look like Macaulay Culkin, unless you don't want to reduce the physical appareance to the colors of the hair.

If you already knew who are the two boys, why did you ask if my avatar is a picture of myself?

Get yourself a sense of humor and irony, man!

[prémont]

Jake Lloyd doesn't look like Macaulay Culkin, unless you don't want to reduce the physical appareance to the color of the hair.

There is a certain similarity. Look at the right ear, the nose and the area just above the upper lip.

If you already knew who are the two boys, why did you ask if my avatar is a picture of myself?

I didn't realise this until later.

[DavidW]

Ah, wearing one's ignorance like a badge of honor.

A booktuber that I liked it called it the Twitter/social media effect.  People these days think that if you just shout the same lie over and over it becomes true by repetition.  And since people on social media end up in an echo chamber they become convinced that truth is whatever they want it to be.

[DavidW]

It strikes me that these two people also have quite a lot (physically) in common with your avatar, which raises the question of whether it is you.

WAM is the chosen one... he will bring balance.  WEEE!!!

[DavidW]

Basically,

Oh no time for another strawman!!