People obsessed by categories: "Soundtracks are not classical music!!!"

[Florestan]

I must have left before before the arrival of this HZ. Do you remember seeing the two names at the same time? Because I'm seeing many telltale signs. Including all the polls.

I haven't been following TC regularly so I can't remember. Currently, both HZ and AM are banned; the latter joined in 2013, the former in 2022 so it's quite possible they be the same person. In any case, GMG's W.A.Mozart is certainly TC's HansZimmer, there is no doubt about it.

[prémont]

I haven't been following TC regularly so I can't remember. Currently, both HZ and AM are banned; the latter joined in 2013, the former in 2022 so it's quite possible they be the same person.

Art Music was banned from TC a couple of years ago, so I don't think these two usernames have been present there at the same time.

In any case, GMG's W.A.Mozart is certainly TC's HansZimmer, there is no doubt about it.

Yes, that's evident.

[71 dB]

In my experience, those who are really obsessed with categories are the devotees of "pop" music.  Here are the default categories from a well-known bit of music-playing software, presumably devised to coincide with the wishes of the majority of users:

Alternative
Blues
R&B
Country
Dance
Easy Listening
Electronic
Folk
Hip hop
House
Indie
Industrial
Pop
Rap
Rock
Techno
Trance

And users of this music player will also find the very useful category "Classical", which covers everything from Léonin to Dobrinka Tabakova.

Which category of these does for example Mallsoft music belong to? Alternative? Easy Listening? Electronic? The problem of music categories is it expects music to follow those definitions. When someone mixes Industrial with Rock and Techno the result can be fresh, innovative and interesting, but the music itself is difficult to label based on a list like this. These categories work for people who are puristic about the style.

[W.A. Mozart]

Incorrect.

It was a hyperbole. Not forbidden by law, of course, but the concept was "don't do this in a classical music composition otherwise we won't play it in classical music concerts".

[W.A. Mozart]

The title is just clickbait, nothing more. And yes, I have bitten the bait, deal with it.

Clickbait means that the content of your post doesn't coincide with the title. How exactly is the title not descriptive?

[W.A. Mozart]

To the community:

The Alma Deutscher plug confirms what I had feared: this is the TC member ArtMusic.

No. However, Alma Deutscher is a successful composer (and for good reasons: her violin concerto is one of my favourite pieces) and for sure there are many people who speak about her.

Trying to convince him that if he actually listened to some post WW2 classical he might actually like it, instead of disparaging it based on almost no exposure will be fruitless.

I haven't disparaged post WW2 classical music. I actually like it. Infact, I've just written that the violin concerto of Alma Detuscher is one of my favourite pieces, so it's clear that I don't have any bias towards contemporary music.

Perhaps what you wanted to say is that I don't like determined styles of classical music. If I don't like something doesn't mean that I disparage it.
If someone writes that he doesn't like the style of the classical period, I take no offense. But you can not touch avantgarde music otherwise the world ends.

It's you, if anything, who despised determined music: the soundtracks. There isn't any attack towards avantgarde music in the OP or in any post written by me. In your first two posts of this discussion there are clear attacks towards soundtracks.

[W.A. Mozart]

Like Vaughan Williams, when I am listening to Shostakovich's film music, I usually put it in the Film Music thread, whether they are a concert suite or not. Would anyone care if I put it in the main Classical Music Listening thread; probably not. Would some care if I put Hans Zimmer there; perhaps not, but there might be a eyebrow raised against it belonging there. Often times, it is all orchestral music, so does it matter? Not to me...

Regarding Shostakovich: if his music for films was written in a completely different style in respect to his concert music, it would be correct to consider his compositions for films as something separate.
However this is not the case. Since his film music is classical, why shouldn't you be allowed to post it in a classical music thread?
To say that something is not classical music because it's a soundtrack it's like to say that something is not classical music because it's an opera, or that the boy of my avatar is not a male because he is a child.

Regarding Hans Zimmer: he is an eclectic composer whose music covers many different genres. Is he specialized in classical music? No. Can some of his soundtracks be classified as classical music? Yes. For example this neoclassical piece that he composed for the Lion King.

[ritter]

Can the imitation of classical music be considered classical music?

[Florestan]

People, be warned: the exactly corresponding thread on TC, started by exactly the same guy, ran for 243 pages (!) over two years (!!).

[pjme]

People, be warned: the exactly corresponding thread on TC, started by exactly the same guy, ran for 243 pages (!) over two years (!!).

Thanks, Andrei!

I wish him all the best!

Do we need some sort of exorcism? 

[Florestan]

Do we need some sort of exorcism? 

Common sense and sound judgment will do just fine.   

[DavidW]

People, be warned: the exactly corresponding thread on TC, started by exactly the same guy, ran for 243 pages (!) over two years (!!).

More popular than Dave Hurwitz or Havergal Brian!

[foxandpeng]

Since his film music is classical, why shouldn't you be allowed to post it in a classical music thread?

Not really engaged with this thread beyond reading, so far. Regarding the above, we are fortunate to have a long-standing thread dedicated to Film Music on the forum; for the sake of easily finding relevant posts and information, it makes sense and probably good manners to predominantly if not exclusively, post film music there

Makes life far easier for people like me.

[Karl Henning]

It was a hyperbole. Not forbidden by law, of course, but the concept was "don't do this in a classical music composition otherwise we won't play it in classical music concerts".

Still both tendentious and incorrect.

[Karl Henning]

You just want to rant. I get it. You can't assume that any of us find it entertaining.

[Roasted Swan]

More popular than Dave Hurwitz or Havergal Brian!

NO-ONE is more popular than Havergal Brian........!!

[vandermolen]

I don't have a strong view on this and am often told that the symphonic music that I like 'sounds like film music' - but so what? 
This thread has reminded me, however, of how much I enjoy Braga Santos's 3rd Symphony.

[W.A. Mozart]

Can the imitation of classical music be considered classical music?

The appellation "Classical music" is a broad, somewhat imprecise term in referring to music produced in, or rooted in the traditions of, Western art, ecclesiastical and concert music, encompassing a broad period from roughly 1000 to the present day.

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Classical_music


According to the definition of the newworldencyclopedia, the music rooted in classical music, it's classical music. So, the answer to your question is "yes", according to this definition.

... but what does "imitation" mean exactly?

My views are the following.

If a contemporary composer writes a symphony in the same exact style of Mendelssohn, at the point that someone might think that it's a lost symphony of Mendelssohn, the work is a pastiche.

On the other hand, if a contemporary composer writes a symphony inspired to Mendelssohn, but with innovative elements, the work is an imitation.


Now, we know that Beethoven was a great source of inspiration for many composers.
If the post-Beethoven composers would have written only pastiches of Beethoven's music, classical music today would be still like the one of the beginning of the 19th century.

We all know that, in reality, many composers were only generically inspired by Beethoven, so they wrote imitations of his music and not pastiches.


What I want to say is that writing imitations of older works, and not only pastiches, is fundamental for the evolution of classical music.

If we decided that Mozart-Haydn-Beethoven was the only authentic classical music and that new musical works had to sound EXACTLY like their music to be classified as "classical music", the music of Prokofiev couldn't be classified as classical music. Someone might say that even the ninth symphony of Dvorak would be outside of the boundaries if imitation of classical music wouldn't be classical music.

[Mandryka]

What I want to say is that writing imitations of older works, and not only pastiches, is fundamental for the evolution of classical music.

 

This is true. It was precisely this that the pioneers of total serialism were out to avoid -- Stockhausen and Boulez most notably. Their thought was that, by breaking down music into its fundamental elements, and defining a range possibilities for each, the composer is more likely to be original and fresh. If the composer starts with limitations -- for example, common practice ideas about what harmonies work and what harmonies don't-- then he's more likely to write music based on existing music.

This way of thinking was only mainstream for a very short time. Some composers still follow it possibly, but most don't as far as I know, and they haven't done for years.

Two additional random things, which may be related. One is this interview with Michael Finnissy, where he talks about how he starts composing with existing music in mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZMCOw4hAZA&ab_channel=CassandraM

And a personal anecdote of no consequence. I remember in an academic seminar on postmodernism I argued that Beethoven helps himself to existing music like, for example, Christian Marclay -- that the two E-flat major chords at the start of the Eroica were just as much found objects as the samples in, let's say, Christian Marclay and Otomo Yoshihide's Sliced and Diced.

[Spotted Horses]

The appellation "Classical music" is a broad, somewhat imprecise term in referring to music produced in, or rooted in the traditions of, Western art, ecclesiastical and concert music, encompassing a broad period from roughly 1000 to the present day.

The most salient element of that sensible definition of classical music is "imprecise." Getting worked up over what is and isn't classical music seems like a very poor way to expend mental energy and time.