People obsessed by categories: "Soundtracks are not classical music!!!"

[Karl Henning]

But from what I can work out it's about micro-classification, and that's not an issue that I'm very interested in, either.

No, the obsession is all on his end.

[71 dB]

Someone break forum rules so we can kill this thread for goddamn once!

All we have to do is turn this into politics and religion...

[W.A. Mozart]

It seems that the compositional logic of film scores is very much determined by external rather than internal factors. The beats that are hit in scoring e.g.: an action sequence are only justified by reference to that action sequence, not to any musical necessity or impetus.

Your post might be meaningful in a discussion which asks the difference between composing music for a soundtrack and composing music for the concert hall.

In the specific case of classical music, you might explain how a composer of classical music has to change his approach to composition when he has to write music for a soundtrack and not for the concert hall.

What you clearily don't realise, however, is that your post is relevant when it comes to explain the difference between classical music for the concert hall and classical music for a soundtrack (the category "classical soundtrack"), but not for demonstrating that the category "classical soundtrack" doesn't exist.
You only explained the difference between two subcategories of classical music, and not the one between classical music and other genres of music.



Note that your observations can be applied to jazz composers too: isn't a jazz composition for a film score subservient to external factors?

For example, Dave Grusin is a jazz composer who has worked on the score of many films. I want that you all tell me that his music composed for the film "The Faboulous Baker Boys" is not jazz.

If you think (like me) that this piece can be classified as jazz, then you have to explain me why the differences between composing soundtracks and composing music for the concert hall is relevant only when it comes to classical music but it's not relevant in all other musical forms (like for example jazz).

Many people in the world of classical music seem to think that classical music is a special thing in respect to all other musical forms and that therefore we must apply a special and twisted logic for it.



In the context of similar discussions I've read the encyclopedic definitions of "classical music" many times.
The definition given are really vague, but no one of them specify that a classical-style composition can not be considered classical music if it's composed for a film score.


If you go to a store of chairs and you tell the customer service that chairs with less than four legs, according to your completely arbitrary definition, are not real chairs and that therefore the models they sell are frauds, they might think that you need the help of a doctor.


Saying that Classic FM is a fraud because it promotes determined soundtracks as classical music (it's basically what the article of the blog of theguardian says) because according to his COMPLETELY ARBITRARY definition of classical music, a classical composition can not be subservient to external elements, it's a similar thing.
And this is what I mean when I speak about "obsessions for categories": the practice of inventing 100'000 restrictive parameters for a determined category instead of accepting the generic nature of human categories.


@San Antone @Karl Henning @DavidW @Szykneij @hopefullytrusting @Spotted Horses @pjme @Maestro267

[Maestro267]

Don't you dare ping me, sunshine.

[Luke]

He stopped pinging me, so I think I''m no longer deemed relevant or worthy. Should I be upset?

[Karl Henning]

He stopped pinging me, so I think I'm no longer deemed relevant or worthy. Should I be upset?

I'd exult in it!

[DavidW]

Why the hate? Just ignore it. Personally a) I don't agree with killing threads just because we don't like them, and b) I don't think this is an offensive thread at all.

Yeah only us mods have to pay attention honestly!

To be honest I'm not even quite sure what WAM is on about, because I can only skim those long long posts,

Wait... I thought you were the one reading them.  If you're not, who is?  Is anyone reading those posts?  If I had that kind of stamina, I would have finished Mann's Magic Mountain by now!

[Karl Henning]

Yeah only us mods have to pay attention honestly!

Wait... I thought you were the one reading them.  If you're not, who is?  Is anyone reading those posts?  If I had that kind of stamina, I would have finished Mann's Magic Mountain by now!

Not I, surely. Especially knowing how negligible is the chance that he'd address any contrary thesis.

[Luke]

Not I, surely. Especially knowing how negligible is the chance that he'd address any contrary thesis.

Well, precisely.

[DavidW]

Well I can't leave it like this, it could explode overnight.  I'll temporarily lock the thread and kill the post above me.  Let's not get into politics in a music thread, thank you.

[DavidW]

I forgot about this thread.  Okay, friendly reminder if you don't like this thread please just ignore it.  It doesn't violate forum policy, and as long as we keep religion or politics out of it, there is really no issue with this debate.

Also, as a reminder, if you feel frustrated with how the discussion has unfolded there is an easy solution... just stop posting hoping for something different.  That is the definition of insanity after all.

Thank you for your patience.

[Luke]

Thanks, David. Don't like to see these things getting locked. 

[W.A. Mozart]

Ok, I'd like to restart the discussion with this image.





If someone thinks that what the image illustrates is wrong he can explain why.

I think that we all know that there are differences between the category "classical soundtrack" (the interesection between "soundtrack" and "classical music") and the part of the classical music which doesn't belong to the intersection, but they are differences between subcategories of classical music.

Note that what @Crudblud wrote might be also said in regards to ballet music and incidental music for theatre: there are external factors which dictate the direction of the composition, but the last time I checked classsical ballet music and classical incidental music were considered subcategories of classical music, so I don't see what's the problem with the subcategory "classical soundtrack".

[Karl Henning]

There is a score-only option on Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny, but even though I enjoy the movie, and think that Jn Williams' score is very nicely done, I do not at present see myself engaging with that special feature.

[DavidW]

There is a score-only option on Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny, but even though I enjoy the movie, and think that Jn Williams' score is very nicely done, I do not at present see myself engaging with that special feature.

I think there is a sing a long version of Frozen.  Would you like to build a snowman...

[Karl Henning]

I think there is a sing a long version of Frozen.  Would you like to build a snowman...

I'll confirm that with my PT!

[W.A. Mozart]

There is a score-only option on Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny, but even though I enjoy the movie, and think that Jn Williams' score is very nicely done, I do not at present see myself engaging with that special feature.

As I'm not a native English speaker, I understand English texts only if they are straightforward. I don't understand the meaning of this post... can someone explain?

[W.A. Mozart]

Not I, surely. Especially knowing how negligible is the chance that he'd address any contrary thesis.

Actually I respond too all posts. Perhaps you mean that I have to agree with them instead of reponding "I don't agree, because...".

[Karl Henning]

There is a score-only option on Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny, but even though I enjoy the movie, and think that Jn Williams' score is very nicely done, I do not at present see myself engaging with that special feature.

Possibly related: Last night I very much enjoyed revisiting The Last Temptation of Christ. Peter Gabriel's soundtrack is highly successful. I know he released Passion as an album, but really I've never been interested to hear the music apart from the film.

[Roasted Swan]

As I'm not a native English speaker, I understand English texts only if they are straightforward. I don't understand the meaning of this post... can someone explain?

I assume it means that on the DVD there is an option to listen ONLY to the music soundtrack - so no pictures.  But Karl is saying he does not think he will use that option even though he likes the score and the film.

I have a DVD of "Glory" (GREAT film) which has a superb soundtrack by James Horner and it has the same option - which I have also never used.