CPO diaries

Started by Brian, March 06, 2024, 01:07:52 PM

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JBS

Quote from: Brian on March 07, 2024, 06:59:08 AMHere is another thread idea...what record label would cause each of our members to click the "buy one of everything" button!

Opera Rara and Bru Zane if my checking account allowed it.
[Spoiler: it doesn't]


Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

vandermolen

One of my favourite CPO releases:
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Jo498

- Onslow quartets, quintets and other chamber music (often the only available recordings)
- Boccherini quartets, mixed bag (mostly "Revolutionary Drawing Room", not the most exciting HIP ensemble), again sometimes the only recordings
- CPE Bach concerti, symphonies with Ludger Rémy
- early Viennese classical symphonies (Wagenseil, Monn...) with Gaigg
- Haydn trios and others (Dussek, Kozeluch) with Trio 1790
- Reger violin and cello sonatas
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

T. D.

#23
I'm not that big a (CD) collector, but Glossa is the one label I'd consider for the "buy one of everything" tag.

My fond memories of cpo are not very exotic, aside from the old "Hans Zender Edition": off the top of my head Hindemith quartets, Taneyev chamber music, Josquin music cond. Manfred Cordes, Weinberg string quartets (like the performances, though I don't listen all that often).

I've never been disappointed by a cpo purchase. It's a reliable quality label.

Florestan

Quote from: JBS on March 07, 2024, 07:53:05 PMOpera Rara and Bru Zane if my checking account allowed it.
[Spoiler: it doesn't]



Indeed, two of the classiest, most deluxe labels --- actually, in terms of booklets, they and AliaVox are THE classiest and most deluxe.
There is no theory. You have only to listen. Pleasure is the law. — Claude Debussy

Spotted Horses

Quote from: Pat B on March 07, 2024, 07:13:59 PMIf money and time are no object, probably either Harmonia Mundi or BIS.

Within hearing distance of sanity: Globe.

One I actually have (via big box): Seon.

Harmonia Mundi, BIS would be temptations.

I have one (almost) since I have Mercury Living Presence I, II and III, plus the complete Paul Paray MLP Mono and Dorati MLP Mono. There's a smattering of MLP (mostly mono) that didn't make it into those sets. I seem to have missed out on the Kubelik/CSO box. :(
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

DavidW

Quote from: Pat B on March 07, 2024, 07:13:59 PMIf money and time are no object, probably either Harmonia Mundi or BIS.

Within hearing distance of sanity: Globe.

One I actually have (via big box): Seon.

Alpha Classics for me.  I don't think I've ever heard any recording with that alpha symbol on it that was anything less than impressive.

T. D.

#27
I'm listening (for the first time in quite a while) to a 2-CD cpo set of Gesualdo Madrigals Books I-III by Gesualdo Consort Amsterdam (dir. Harry van der Kamp). I enjoy it and am happy with the set, but there are good alternatives so it's a matter of taste.

Brian



Listened to this over the weekend from my personal CD collection, an old friend purchased a few years ago on clearance/on recommendation from Todd. What struck me this time is that track 11, the second to last movement of the Pergolesi, really sounds exactly like a lost Scarlatti sonata in the piano transcription.



This release unites three sonatas with unusual subtitles. Dussek's contribution is the huge (32 minute) "Le retour à Paris" sonata, while Wölfl presents "Le diable à quatre" and "Non plus ultra."

Dussek is a known quantity to me from Olga Pashchenko's sonata and concerto discs on Alpha. Some of his works can range into really fascinating harmonic territory, but this grand Parisian work is more romantic and softer in tone, more like the Beethoven Pastoral sonata with the solo parts from Chopin's piano concertos mixed into the dough. It certainly is not as "heroic" as the length would suggest.

The Wölfl sonatas are also in sunny major keys (E and F). The most unusual feature of the "le diable" sonata is the slow movement, which sounds like a transcribed Mozart comic opera aria. The initial operatic tune is subjected to some gentle variations. "Non plus ultra" starts with a very grand intro, and also has an unusual structural feature, as the second movement acts as a small introduction to the finale, a la Waldstein. The finale has another operatic songlike melody, which makes me think that this is structured like recitative-aria. In fact, it is a German folk song, the booklet tells me, and subjected to a series of entertaining variations.

This is all sunny, genial music calculated to please late classical audiences. The backstory is interesting. Wölfl was a fixture of the piano circuit in London, where he was famous for his easygoing, friendly personality, and where other musicians contrasted him with the crankier, more arrogant Beethoven. That certainly comes across in the less ambitious music. "Non plus ultra" was named that because it was a calling-card work at concerts across the city (even though it is not very virtuosic). Dussek's London publisher took advantage and renamed "Le retour à Paris" as the "Plus ultra" sonata, but the Czech composer certainly did not intend to start a rivalry.

There's another interesting story about Wölfl in the booklet. Once he was supposed to play one of his own concertos, but the piano was a half-tone out of tune and there was no chance a tuner could fix it before the performance. So the composer simply, during the performance, played the whole thing in C sharp instead of C, as if changing his fingering on the fly was no trouble at all!



Hugo Kaun was a German emigrant to Milwaukee who taught music in Wisconsin and composed the two Longfellow/Native American inspired tone poems on this disc while relaxing in the backwoods of the state. A little after 1900, he decided to move back to Germany, but found himself on the conservative end of a musical debate, opposed to Mahler and his acolytes, aligned more with Pfitzner and the old guard. His tone poems aroused interest because of the "exotic" Native associations, and his Symphony No. 3 from 1913 was conducted by Pfitzner and a young Furtwangler. After the War, he wrote very little and was embittered by the animosity between his two favorite countries.

The tone poems "Minnehaha" and "Hiawatha" proceed through episodes describing bits from the original Longfellow stories. Thus, for example, "Minnehaha" begins with a pastoral reverie and ends with a funeral march. It's all pretty mild stuff, certainly less graphic/vivid than tone poems by Liszt for example. The chivalric horn calls that begin "Hiawatha" announce that this second poem will be livelier than the first, and there are certainly a lot of echoes of composers like Dvorak, Smetana, and Wagner. It's very pretty.

Symphony No. 3 comes from after his return to Germany and his enrollment in the anti-Mahler battles. It's in E minor and super-traditional, even with a slow introduction. Kaun's love of Bruckner takes longer to surface, unless you count the length (50 minutes). The first movement is slowish, with a little bit of activity and an atmosphere that comes across more mysterious than tragic. The scherzo is also a little bit spooky and has some playful brass solos in its spiky main theme. If Kaun let his brass roar more loudly, you'd hear definite Bruckner comparisons here. The trio also brings Bruckner to mind. I found the adagio a snooze, unfortunately, but the finale has more drama and tragedy than was hinted at previously, along with a fugato. It's more interesting than the rest, enough to create a problem of balance in the work. A historical curiosity only, I'd say, unless you like conservative Germanic symphonies in the style of Bruch or Bruckner 0/00.

The orchestra plays wonderfully, though in some episodes, there are so many cymbal crashes that the cymbal player can't get his/her muscle into all of them. I also think a more "Brucknerian" brass section would have more of a meal of the symphony than the rather uncoordinated players here, who sound more like soloists who happen to be sitting next to each other.

Kaun maintained a wonderful curly mustache.



No. 9 - two violins, clarinet, and orchestra
No. 12 - violin, cello, and orchestra
No. 2 - violin, cello, and orchestra

Carl Stamitz is reasonably well-known on this forum; there've been many releases of his music. He came up in Mannheim, where his father Johann was a composer, and became a renowned virtuoso and composer. Mozart hated him and is quoted in the booklet as saying that, as a performer, Stamitz was let down by excessive drinking. One peculiarity of his Sinfonias Concertante is that, no matter how many soloists appear in them, often only one of them gets to play in the slow movement.

No. 9 is unique in that the two violinists are the soloists in the first and last movements, and neither appears in the slow movement at all - that's where the clarinet comes in. The clarinet's movement is also minor-key rather than major, and there are no orchestral clarinets. It's an interesting but strange effect. No. 12 has orchestral clarinets, and the violin gets the slow-movement solo duties. In No. 2, both violin and cello have solos in all three movements, and in the slow one they're also joined by a flute.

I always find Carl Stamitz' music pleasant and enjoyable. (I remember enjoying the "Orchestral Quartets" on Naxos.) These are, too. They're small-scale entertainments with little drama, just friendly music-making. The players take a hybrid-HIP approach; I think they're on gut strings but not making a huge deal out of it. It sounds like an appealing chamber-sized ensemble. Paul Meyer conducts in addition to playing clarinet, which is why his name is on the cover twice.



Louise Farrenc has been one of my very favorite CPO finds since the label first released her symphonies many years ago. But I missed this July 2023 release containing two 25-minute piano trios (one for the usual setup, the other for flute, cello, and piano), a 20-minute violin sonata, and a short set of variations for cello and piano.

Farrenc really loved minor keys, and all the big pieces on this disc are in them. The Piano Trio No. 2 has a lyrical slow intro before the turbulent first movement, and an absolutely delightful theme-and-variations central movement that absolutely reminds me of something from a Beethoven trio. The Swiss folksong variations are lovely, too. Piano Trio No. 4 (with the flute) and Violin Sonata No. 1 fall in a Mendelssohnian tradition of very pleasant, amiable, interesting mainstream romantic music that doesn't make your blood boil with excitement but also isn't for a moment boring, slack, or overwritten. Well-crafted stuff.

The Farrenc series remains one of my CPO favorites. Pianist Konstanze Eickhorst, the central figure in the Linos Ensemble here, previously recorded her solo piano music, in addition to the Linos' previous album of trios. All the players, who are clearly long-term committed to the cause, play terrifically.

Luke

Plenty, but as this disc is one of my favourite things of all, it springs to mind first:

Brian



Taking inspiration from vandermolen this morning! Rudolph Simonsen's CPO album does not have a booklet uploaded to Qobuz, but I did find on Wikipedia the very interesting fact that Symphony No. 2 "Hellas" won a bronze medal at the 1928 Olympics! Apparently for several decades the Olympics had art competitions, although (Wikipedia further tells me) only on one occasion were the winners performed at any kind of Olympic concert, and only one composer who ever entered is really "major" (Josef Suk, silver in 1932). Simonsen's bronze came in a year when the judges refused to award anyone either gold or silver, which is quite insulting. (That link goes to all the Olympic medals for music. Notice how the 1936 medals almost all went to loyal Nazis.)

The program starts with a tragic-ish overture in G minor that follows along from the middle-romantic Germanic style of Bruch, Raff, very young R. Strauss, etc. The ending sounds a little bit like Simonsen knew about the glorious ending of Mahler 2 and wanted to emulate it somewhat.

I wish I knew the storyline behind Symphony No. 1 "Zion" but without the booklet, I just have the Sturm und Drang to go on. Simonsen is pretty accomplished at creating short, memorable thematic cells. The first movement is mostly just angry/violent high romantic stuff, but then we get an 18-minute (half the total length) slow movement that begins very, very calmly and quietly - almost trancelike pre-minimalist stuff. The horns intone a soft theme, then the strings take it up, and that's all that happens for about 5 minutes. But it isn't boring. It's fascinating! The string texture is mysterious and mystical, the horn call is almost primal, and the mood is like very few other pieces. It builds to a climax around 6', then fades back to the beginning sounds around 10. Here, I'm wondering how he's going to get another 8 minutes in, when the English horn suddenly modulates to major key in the manner of - again - the winds in the finale of Mahler 2. The remaining 8 minutes drift along aimlessly, to be honest, and could have all been cut. There is a nice seamless transition to the "inspirational" finale, although this movement has passages with great energy and then passages where the energy fades away.

OK, between symphonies, I cheated and looked at ClassicsToday, where Hurwitz gave this release a 4! He basically thought the whole thing was boring and derivative. One thing I didn't understand was that the long, trancelike slow movement was meant to be a funeral march. Hmm.

Symphony No. 2 "Hellas," the piece that caused Olympic judges to withhold gold and silver  ;D , is divided into three parts depicting various Greek things: the tragedy of Orestes, "solitude in the temple," and Athena. In "Die Orestie" Simonsen is at a disadvantage, because I just saw Elektra live - and, remember, that work had been written 20 years earlier. Simonsen learned from Strauss the importance of chromatic "gnarly" harmony to create a disturbing atmosphere, but he doesn't have a theme nearly as engaging as Strauss' terrifying three-note motto, he's working with a smaller orchestra, and...well...he isn't Strauss.

Overall, this symphony's plan is actually similar to the First, with the slow movement forming a lyrical, calming respite to the previous part. And the finale again has some really cool fun ideas along with some sections that drain the energy back out. Mostly, it's pretty good, though. The orchestra often seems too small for the music. I think overall I'd go a little higher than Hurwitz on my personal 1-10 scale, but maybe only up to about 6.



After the chromatic, chaotic textures of Simonsen's late romantic orchestra, the idea of piano duets by one of the late classical era's most polished stylists sounded really appealing. This stuff is as good as expected. It's clean, pristine, charming, and elegant - like a midpoint between Mozart and young Schubert. I love the late Clementi sonatas; most of these works are earlier and therefore more bite-sized. They're all in major keys.

Not much to say about this disc, except that the playing is as good as we expect from this duo. If you like one of the Clementi sonatas/duets, you'll like them all.



I have always loved the Eino Tamberg discs on BIS, which present the composer as a sort of cross between the neoclassical clarity and brightness of Nordic composers (like Wiren and Nielsen), the spiky-but-pleasing modernism of Roussel and Honegger, and the extroverted theatrical music of ballet or dance suites by people like Walton. It's a really appealing combination - you know you'll get some romantic warmth, super-splashy orchestration, and some tough bits to chew on while you digest the easier material.

Well...Cyrano de Bergerac is that, too, but 108 minutes long and sung in Estonian. I don't know the action at all, and CPO's booklet isn't on Qobuz again. But it sounds great, especially with the truly spectacular, label-best recorded sound, orchestral playing, and singing. This is just incredibly fun and full of cool stuff. Eino Tamberg is definitely one of my favorite non-famous composers.

Florestan



I'm sorry to spoil the party but this recording is proof that cpo does not always meet their own standards.  ;D

The concept is an interesting one. The arias are selected from the scores in the library of the joint archives of the Turinese Accademia Filarmonica and Societa del Whist (the latter founded by Camillo Benso, Count of Cavour), operas which were performed in one of the two main opera houses, Teatro Regio and Teatro Carignano. Such luminaries as Paisiello, Galuppi, Piccini, Monsigny and Gretry are featured, together with a few unknwon others. In principle, this should be a delight.

Well, it is not, for several reasons.

First, the "orchestra". I very much doubt that the ones at Regio or Carignano consisted only of two violins, a viola, a cello, a double bass, a flute and a harpsichord --- which is all we have  here. Also, I very much doubt that the operas in question were scored for such limited forces. Indeed, checking for instance the score of Galuppi's Il filosofo de campagna, of which two arias are offered, one sees that it was scored for first violins, second violins, cellos, basses, two oboes and two horns. (NB, no flutes). The result is that what are supposed to be operatic arias sound like cantate da camera and this completely change their character.

Second, the sound. For whatever incomprehensible reason, the engineer(s) decided to have it split in three clearly distinct channels: left, the two violins playing in unison; center, the voice; right, the continuo (harpsichord and cello), and to record all of these channels at exactly the same level of loudness, which results in the continuo being as prominent as the voice, which is annoying in the highest degree. Well, you may ask, and the viola, the double bass and the flute, what channel are they on? I don't know the answer to this question because not even one second have I heard them.

Third, the programme. All arias are on the fast side tempo-wise which, given the drawbacks I just mentioned, results in aural fatigue setting in rather quickly.

Fourth, the voice. The French soprano's Italian diction is not perfect, to say the least, and the singing is anyway drowned in the continuous buzz of the continuo (pun) and the two violins playing in unison. There is no question of understanding more than half of what is being sung. The things do not improve much in the two French arias.

Bottom line, my high expectations about this disc were not met. If not quite a plain dud, it's certainly misjudged and misrecorded --- perhaps the least enjoyable cpo recording I've ever heard so far.
There is no theory. You have only to listen. Pleasure is the law. — Claude Debussy

Brian

#32
 ;D  ;D thank you for that review, apparently much more enjoyable than the disc!

-



Some romantic-era delights for two pianos. Though a lot of the recital is "lighter" in nature, the opening Variations on Balkan Themes are not, a big 20-minute chunk of seriously worked-out, technically more challenging stuff, mostly in minor keys and using melancholy, ballad-like themes.

The rest of the disc offers more miniatures, tone-pictures, even some Irish folk tunes. It's not quite as kinetic as the two-pianist works by Dvorak, but it's in the same realm, and if you like the more famous composer (think "From the Bohemian Forest" and the "Legends"), you'll enjoy Amy Beach as well.



I'd heard Vol. 1, dedicated to the "big" Symphonies 3 and 4, but not this one. The Overture, recently also recorded on Chandos, is a delightful five-minute perpetuum mobile that will get concert audiences' attention firmly secured, with super-virtuoso parts for every single musician. A total success. Symphony No. 2 is a tight 20-minute work in four short movements, and it is in general lighter than some of the other Bacewicz symphonies, though that does not exactly mean it sounds like Haydn. There's a searching, heroic quality to some of the first movement's themes, and the slow movement is haunting, lyrical, and concise (with some of her least harmonically complicated melodies). The scherzo is a joyride, as light-hearted as I've ever heard her music. The finale is relaxed as well. Generally, in formal organization, mood, and overall effect, I'd say this is rather like Martinu's Symphony No. 2. It doesn't sound the same because they have such different musical styles, of course, but the layout is so similar, right down to a brief wistful introduction. It's like translating the same text to a new language.

The more familiar, modern Bacewicz returns for the second half of the program: the zany/chaotic/fun Variations for Orchestra, a 10-minute piece where I couldn't tell you what the theme was, and the 16-minute "Musica sinfonica in tre movimenti," with two loud, violent bookend movements around a central "molto tranquillo" that is more than half the work's length. This movement is full of writing for small instrumental ensembles, like the passage that's just for flutes, oboes, xylophone, and harp (!).

Among Bacewicz fans and newcomers, I think this disc is stylistically varied enough that there will definitely be something for everyone. As usual with Borowicz recordings on CPO (someone has said this already in this thread!), the playing and conducting are absolutely top-notch.

Brian



Revisiting this album that was sent to me in 2012 for MusicWeb reviewing. Aside from overuse of the word "very", I agree with most of those 12-years-ago thoughts. Well-crafted, genial music that is never too long for its material. Westerhoff knows exactly what size canvas to paint. The clarinet and bassoon concerto is especially wonderful, and fans of middle-era Haydn to early-era Schubert should investigate.

Looks like there has been just one follow-up album, containing two viola concertos and a flute concerto. I think I need to hear the viola concertos. Jonathan Woolf likes 'em.

Todd

Quote from: Brian on March 11, 2024, 12:30:02 PM

Listened to this over the weekend from my personal CD collection, an old friend purchased a few years ago on clearance/on recommendation from Todd. What struck me this time is that track 11, the second to last movement of the Pergolesi, really sounds exactly like a lost Scarlatti sonata in the piano transcription.

Ms Hinrichs has several titles on CPO.  Her Soler is a hidden gem.

The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Brian



Franz Benda was one of the originals of the Benda family of musicians; his son Friedrich Benda also has CPO albums, and his much later descendant Christian Benda records for Naxos. Franz spent much of his time working at the court of Frederick the Great.

Baroque chamber music isn't usually my thing, to be honest. Two things make Benda's sonatas here interesting: the colorful and showy solo writing (which is often in minor keys), and the fact that Evgeny Sviridov chooses to intersperse solo violin capriccios in between the accompanied sonatas. His playing is consistently fresh and HIP-inspired, and the accompanists can create some complex textures. If this is your kind of thing, I recommend it.



The von Flotow piano concertos remind me of the Chopin concertos - except extremely short. The first is just 15 minutes, the second just 17! Flotow studied with Reicha and wrote these works in 1830-31, before he'd turned 20 years old. (The overtures on the CD date from his maturity.) The first concerto basically has no development sections, and the second concerto, in four tiny movements, manages to be cyclical because the introduction's music returns for the finale. Both are lightweight, charming pieces, like if they made piano concertos out of Rossini overtures, maybe. The ends of movements are often a little jarring, because I'm expecting at the very least for one of the melodies to be repeated, but nope - it's over! At least this is a big advantage over some of the later romantic composers who never knew when to stop (or how to avoid a fugue)  ;D

The overtures are a chocolate box. Wintermärchen is full of light textures, muted violin solos, chamber-like instrumental groupings, and also a trombone/tuba interlude. Fackeltanz is much more traditional, with its military fanfares, cymbal crashes, and processional march-like tunes. The rest all fall somewhere in the realm of Auber (but not quite so harmonically interesting), Suppé (but not quite so tuneful), etc. Not essential, but very charming light music. Makes sense that this album would be a Florestan favorite!

The booklet note is one of the sillier and more oddly written in the CPO catalogue.



Robert Kahn was a friend to Clara Schumann, Hans von Bulow, and Johannes Brahms; his 1905 clarinet, cello, and piano trio was written as a tribute to Brahms' late clarinet works. It's a little more animated, less "autumnal," and less easily lyrical, but it has a lot going for it. The clarinet and cello get along beautifully, the first movement has a gently stormy G minor mood, and the second movement allegretto really is very Brahmsian indeed. The whole thing is over in just 21 modest minutes.

Vincent d'Indy's trio for the same three instruments is almost 20 years older, but formally much more inventive. It starts with a 14-minute overture, then a "divertissement," then a "chant elegiaque," then a finale - in total, just more than 35 minutes. The overture starts with a very catchy slow tune, which becomes the main tune for a genial, unhurried main allegro. The scherzo divertissement is a lot of fun, and includes a small trio-like episode just for cello. The elegy is as advertised, with the clarinet given the main theme.

Overall, a fun disc and very well played by three musicians I didn't know before who are clearly sensitive chamber performers. Lovely stuff, and lovely cover painting by previously-unknown-to-me Max Slevogt.

Brian



This is a happy surprise. I don't really listen to many lieder so previously only knew that Carl Loewe was one of the lieder guys, and vaguely was unsure if maybe he was even the song guy from Lerner & Loewe. (No. Ha!) Instead, these are delightfully Mendelssohnian 1830s symphonies - Loewe actually knew Mendelssohn, playing a concerto with him and conducting the premiere of the teenager's Midsummer Night's Dream overture.

Symphony No. 1 is in E minor and No. 2 is in D minor. Both follow on naturally from the soundworld of Mendelssohn's First, and maybe Schumann's Fourth, rather than the more programmatic symphonies Felix wrote later. The First is a firecracker of minor-key energy. The Second is remarkable because the scherzo is longer and fuller than the first movement! It also boasts four horns. Only the happy endings of both finales struck me as rather facile. For good measure, the program adds one opera overture, "Themisto," another high-energy, concise minor-key piece with a lot of punch.

Both works benefit greatly from Simon Gaudenz' conducting: punchy, rhythmically very sharp, HIP-inspired, with timpani like exclamation marks. Great match of conductor to composer. Very much recommended to fans of young Mendelssohn, Kalliwoda, Farrenc, etc.



Pleasant, mild-mannered background music I played while working. There is an orchestral guise for some of these works, also on CPO, and track 27 is a Swedish Dance that I recognize as a folk tune later reused in one of the Atterberg symphonies. Nice on the ear while working, but I wouldn't exactly choose this CD to play for full-attention listening or to keep me awake on a long drive.

Daverz

Quote from: Brian on March 19, 2024, 08:53:06 AM

This is a happy surprise.

I concur, these are very good symphonies.  Quite often these CPO symphonic "discoveries" are merely "nice".  I don't feel cheated out of either money or time because of the quality of the productions, but I do feel a bit let down that I don't like the music as much as I feel I should.

And the Bruch CD is very good, too.

TD: a commenter on Hurwitz's channel mentioned a recording of Mendelssohn's Symphony No. 1 on CPO.  It turns out it's conducted by Sigiswald Kuijken and is a very fine performance of a work that often gets short shrift.





Jo498

#38
The Bruch string octet and other chamber music, a somewhat older issue with Ulf Hoelscher, is also worth getting.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

T. D.

I vaguely mentioned this one upthread: