Klaus Mäkelä chosen for Chicago Symphony Orchestra music director

[Spotted Horses]

I don't know what DH said... but after listening to so some of his Sibelius, I think that KM is overhyped and promoted beyond his abilities unlike a young Bernstein or Karajan.

KM's Sibelius is mannered, uninspired, derivative and bland.  He just doesn't seem like he has enough presence to lead the CSO, one of the finest orchestras in the world.  He might have been fast tracked too fast much like Dudamel (though I think Dudamel has personality in his music making and people are too quick to dismiss him).

I don't think this has to do with age, I mean he is 28.  He is not Doogie Houser.  What does he have to wait until he is 40 before he starts conducting a major orchestra?

Karajan got his first directorship at about the same age, but it was Aachen, not a major orchestra equivalent to the CSO. He made appearances with the WPO at about the same age. I think it is reasonable for a 28 year old to have engagements with the best orchestras, to have a directorship of a minor orchestra (like Rattle/Birmingham, Karajan/Aachen, etc), but for a 28 year old to have directorship of several top tier orchestras is an outlier, and would only be justified if the individual were truly extraordinary. The way for a young conductor to prove his or her mettle would be to raise the profile of a smaller orchestra.

It also strikes me that we have seen conductors with real vision effectively get booted from their American positions (Salonen, Vanska). I have the sneaking suspicion that the bosses of the CSO like the idea of having a milktoast conductor that wouldn't startle the donors. 

[Brian]

I've never heard a note conducted by Mäkelä, but it seems like one directorship should be enough for him to express his view of music, leaving opportunities for others who also have their views to express.

Ross makes this point effectively by comparing him to Jansons, who spent a long time in Oslo building both the orchestra and his own reputation, and to Salonen, who has now had as many full-time music director jobs in his career as Mäkelä has (!!).

[Spotted Horses]

Ross makes this point effectively by comparing him to Jansons, who spent a long time in Oslo building both the orchestra and his own reputation, and to Salonen, who has now had as many full-time music director jobs in his career as Mäkelä has (!!).

I have no doubt of a 28 year old producing brilliant performances with top-tier orchestras. But the best music directors are orchestra builders, and I wouldn't image that someone with little experience would be prepared for that.

In any case, I wish him well.

[(poco) Sforzando]

KM's Sibelius is mannered, uninspired, derivative and bland. 

Can you give an example or two?

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

KM's Sibelius is mannered, uninspired, derivative and bland. 

I haven't heard it, but if you are right, it points to another problem with the star conductor syndrome. The world is already swimming in good Sibelius cycles, do we really need another one? And at such a young age?

Theoretically, it would be better for KM to make recordings of more obscure music for some label like CPO or Chandos for a while, building his rep and interpretive personality. But if he did that, he wouldn't be a "star," and the major orchestras are invested in stardom.

[Roasted Swan]

Ross makes this point effectively by comparing him to Jansons, who spent a long time in Oslo building both the orchestra and his own reputation, and to Salonen, who has now had as many full-time music director jobs in his career as Mäkelä has (!!).

Jansons was principal conductor of the BBC Welsh (now the BBC NOW) before Oslo and he hugely impressed there too.  There is a lot to be said for a kind of strategic career building - but that said what conductor with an ounce of self belief (that will be all of them then....) wouldn't take Chicago or Concertgebouw if they were offered it.  I think very few conductors "build" an orchestra any more - such is the ubiquity of everyone's work and recorded music that no conductor stays in one place long enough to really create a unqiue orchestral personality/sound/style.

On a parallel track I was impressed recently when football manager Xabi Alonso decided to stay at relatively small Bayer Leverkusen rather than follow the money and prestige to Liverpool (or Bayern Munich).  If he's good enough and shows sustained quality the chance will come.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Here's a youtube upload of the Tapiola recording that @DavidW had mentioned.  There's also more of his Sibelius recordings there too.

Well, it's not letting me upload it here, but if you type in his name and Tapiola, it comes up.

[DavidW]

Can you give an example or two?

I posted on the listening thread, and failed to elaborate here.  I unfairly used only one piece-- Tapiola.  I was going to go on to a symphony, but I was so unconvinced that I switched to Frescobaldi instead.

Entirely unfair of me to select Sibelius since I usually only listen to my favorites: Vanska, Segerstam and Barbirolli... but KM hasn't recorded that much period.  It was either Sibelius or Stravinsky.

[DavidW]

Oh, dear!  That's not boding well.  Did you listen to the Tapiola via your streamer?  I'll have to see whether or not I can find anything online with him conducting.

Yes through Qobuz.  I think other posters have listened to his Sibelius, and actually through the whole thing and not just one tone poem... maybe they'll pop up on this thread.

[DavidW]

I see a "winner takes all" trend which pervades many areas of our culture, and the dominance of fundraising in roles which should be about creative activity. It is also an issue in the sciences, where funding piles up on superstar researchers, who don't actually do any research, but who are virtuosos of fundraising and self-promotion. Researchers whose work is not flashy or in line with current prejudices too often fall by the wayside. How many Nobel prize winners in science have commented "this never could have been funded today?"

I've never heard a note conducted by Mäkelä, but it seems like one directorship should be enough for him to express his view of music, leaving opportunities for others who also have their views to express.

My thesis adviser had Kip Thorne (one of the biggest names in general relativity) as his adviser and I learned that Kip Thorne would end up having his name on papers that he didn't do anything with.  Either his large group did, or he would be just asked for some minimal help or opinions.  It is because his name just sells the paper.  Having it on there means it will be fast tracked through peer review without much vetting, it will be read more, it will be cited more.

Sad but true.

[Florestan]

I see a "winner takes all" trend which pervades many areas of our culture, and the dominance of fundraising in roles which should be about creative activity. It is also an issue in the sciences, where funding piles up on superstar researchers, who don't actually do any research, but who are virtuosos of fundraising and self-promotion. Researchers whose work is not flashy or in line with current prejudices too often fall by the wayside. How many Nobel prize winners in science have commented "this never could have been funded today?"

My thesis adviser had Kip Thorne (one of the biggest names in general relativity) as his adviser and I learned that Kip Thorne would end up having his name on papers that he didn't do anything with.  Either his large group did, or he would be just asked for some minimal help or opinions.  It is because his name just sells the paper.  Having it on there means it will be fast tracked through peer review without much vetting, it will be read more, it will be cited more.

Sad but true.

So much for science being the objective and disinterested pursuit of truth. 

[aukhawk]

Oh, dear!  That's not boding well.  Did you listen to the Tapiola via your streamer?  I'll have to see whether or not I can find anything online with him conducting.

Mäkelä conducted the Oslo PO in Tapiola at the Proms in 2022, I watched the TV broadcast.  On that occasion he was little more than podium decoration, since the musicians evidently knew the music very, very well (probably their touring staple piece).  They played like a chamber orchestra, looking inward with exaggerated body language, and Mäkelä tacitly went along with this, seeming rather disinterested and barely bothering to wave his stick along.

That's not to say of course, that he hadn't put the rehearsal time in - and it was, in fact, a very good perfomance of Tapiola indeed - I found it on iPlayer and recorded it (shh!) and it's my favourite version.

[Atriod]

[/quote]

Pro tip: that means the piece is simply great. There's no "he conducted a bad piece so well that it sounded good."

Yes indeed, that is a tremendous symphony, one of the best of the last century. Plenty of conductors have demonstrated that already.

(this is not meant as a knock on Mäkelä, just thought it was strange that the poster held him up as someone making the symphony "better than it is")

[(poco) Sforzando]

I posted on the listening thread, and failed to elaborate here.  I unfairly used only one piece-- Tapiola.  I was going to go on to a symphony, but I was so unconvinced that I switched to Frescobaldi instead.

Entirely unfair of me to select Sibelius since I usually only listen to my favorites: Vanska, Segerstam and Barbirolli... but KM hasn't recorded that much period.  It was either Sibelius or Stravinsky.

I have not heard Klaus's Tapiola but could listen to it in comparison with some favorites like Segerstam and Maazel/VPO. But I put on his Sibelius 5 last night and thought it not so bad, I mean the long accelerando in the first movement wasn't as convincing as say Bernstein/NYP or Maazel/VPO, and the whole seemed a bit cautious. Then I listened to Hurwitz's comments - "dreadful this" and "horrible that" - and methinks the lady doth protest too much.

[brewski]

FWIW, you can hear his Carnegie Hall debut here on WQXR with the Orchestre de Paris, from just a few weeks ago. The program is all-Stravinsky, with The Firebird and The Rite of Spring. I have not yet listened, but will soon.

Decided to start the day with Stravinsky — why not? — and listen to this concert from 16 March. So far, loving the opening of The Firebird, with the Paris strings in fine form, and the rest of the ensemble sounds excellent. (This was their first Carnegie Hall appearance in 20 years.)

I mean, a recording from a live performance isn't the same as actually being in the hall, and I am guessing that Carnegie has some of the best engineers in the business, but this sounds pretty marvelous: lots of transparency and sparkle everywhere, especially in solos. Without being able to actually see the players, they sound completely engaged. Perhaps more comments later, after The Rite of Spring.

EDIT: OK, the audience is going wild after The Firebird, and I don't think it's an audience of people who don't know a good performance when they hear one. The ovations are going on and on...and on, and it's only the first half of the program. PS, I have no horse in this game, but this was a terrific performance.

-Bruce

[Wanderer]

Pro tip: that means the piece is simply great. There's no "he conducted a bad piece so well that it sounded good."

I have the impression that many people (also in this forum) don't consider this a great work, Karl, hence my comment with the signifier in parenthesis to cover both groups. I think it is; it is certainly one of my favourite Shostakovich symphonies. I also certainly remember a time when it almost seemed that it was only you and me who cared enough to say anything good about it (in response to e.g. the Bernstein recording). 
Regardless of all that, it is usually performed to sound very mediocre (most conductors can very easily veer to Soviet kitsch), and my comment was intended as a compliment to a conductor who manages to bring out and balance the impressive qualities, both intimate and majestic, of this very often mistreated work.

[brewski]

I have the impression that many people (also in this forum) don't consider this a great work, Karl, hence my comment with the signifier in parenthesis to cover both groups. I think it is; it is certainly one of my favourite Shostakovich symphonies. I also certainly remember a time when it almost seemed that it was only you and me who cared enough to say anything good about it (in response to e.g. the Bernstein recording). 
Regardless of all that, it is usually performed to sound very mediocre (most conductors can very easily veer to Soviet kitsch), and my comment was intended as a compliment to a conductor who manages to bring out and balance the impressive qualities, both intimate and majestic, of this very often mistreated work.

Just a quick note to say, count me in among those who absolutely love the piece. I heard it live a few weeks ago with Yannick Nézet-Séguin and alumni from the National Youth Orchestra of the USA, and it only renewed my admiration. I'm also in love with some of the history, specifically the US premiere in 1942, when Toscanini and the NBC Symphony Orchestra broadcast their performance. Imagine millions of people glued to the radio, listening to pretty much anything. Anyway, one of my favorites by a favorite composer.

-Bruce

[Brian]

I think very few conductors "build" an orchestra any more - such is the ubiquity of everyone's work and recorded music that no conductor stays in one place long enough to really create a unqiue orchestral personality/sound/style.

This is a really interesting track of thinking about how the nature and work of conducting has changed over the generations. I would believe it if somebody said most orchestras don't need "building" anymore because standards are so high and conservatories are producing so many ultra-skilled musicians who are able to play anything.

I would also believe it if somebody said that orchestras today are so unified in sound, so opposed to strong regional/national differences in timbre, that cultivating a distinctive personality with one conductor over 20 years is not really their goal anymore. When Dallas changed over from Jaap to Fabio, the players were already at an extraordinary technical level, and both conductors have jobs on other continents, so the only real change was the double basses moved from the right side to the left.

[brewski]

I would believe it if somebody said most orchestras don't need "building" anymore because standards are so high and conservatories are producing so many ultra-skilled musicians who are able to play anything.

This has been my opinion for a long time, after hearing some so-called "second-tier" orchestras, both live and recorded. On a given night, any ensemble can sound like the best orchestra in the world. And one of the reasons: the flood of great players. Plus (and I don't have concrete evidence for this), I imagine music students in general are just getting better as time marches on. Not to denigrate great artists from the past, and there are thousands of them, but I think the general quality of musicianship has improved. Better teaching? Better methods? Better instruments? I don't know. But today's musicians do seem more agile and versatile than ever.

-Bruce

[Brian]

Honestly even better compositions help! I think a lot about how the bassoon solo at the beginning of Le Sacre was considered almost unplayable at the time it was written, and now is required of every bassoon player in every professional school around the world.