Beethoven piano sonata shoot-out

[prémont]

Hi premont,

I compared the the performances in the mono and stereo sets a couple of years ago. I found the mono to be better in 9 of the 32 sonatas (Op. 2/2 and 2/3 are much better, Op. 7, 10, 14, 22 are each a bit better.) Since Op. 106 was only recorded once, in mono, that means for performance, I prefer the stereo set for 22/32 and 10/32 for mono. Since I find the sound quality to be much, much better, I reach for the stereo set when I want to hear Backhaus's Beethoven.     

Yes, the SQ of the stereo set is indeed better, but I think the sound of the mono set is good for it's time. So I wouldn't choose what to listen to of these two based upon considerations about SQ.

As to the artistic quality I find the mono set generally better. It has more authority and direction than the stereo set, which feels softer in expression. Some of this may however be caused by the more full and mellow sound of the stereo set. I have not made A/B tests though.

[prémont]

Todd has been posting his lists for a long time, with his tongue firmly in his cheek regarding the objectivity of his rankings.  That said, I find his reviews insightful, enjoyable to read, and his threads have brought to my attention a number of cycles that are well worth hearing. 

20% insight and 80% taste I would say, but never-the-less entertaining reading. Being an avid Beethovenian myself (with special interest in the piano sonatas) I also keep updated with new releases, and Todd's post has been most meaningful to me in terms of what not to waste my time on.

[Todd]

Match 7: Minsoo Sohn vs Takahiro Sonoda

Sohn takes his sweet time in the broadly timed Allegro of Op 28, and he doesn't play in an especially flowing manner, but the subdued approach, the cleanly articulated right hand playing (and left hand when needed), and perfect dynamic terracing all work splendidly.  The broad approach and Sohn's forte prowess yields a maximally satisfying climax in the movement, with deep, rich left hand playing after.  Sohn maintains a slow approach in the Andante, and the clarity and dynamics and control make it work.  The Scherzo remains restrained in the outer section, but zippy in the middle, but those dynamic contrasts remain, fast or slow.  Sohn keeps it slow in the Rondo, too, with only the galloping coda speeding up, but as a display of absolute pianistic control, this recording rocks.  Sonoda hardly comes off as a speed demon, but the insistent left hand playing imparts tension, and the sound is brighter and edgier.  The steadiness, the evenness, the clarity, Sonoda more or less exemplifies the straight-ahead approach here.  Sonoda goes slow in the outer sections of the Andante, and a bit quicker in the middle section.  While it works well, it lacks the supreme refinement of Sohn.  Both the Scherzo and Rondo return to no-frills, straight-ahead playing of a very high order.  This is yet another case where two pianists I rate highly vary only very slightly qualitatively.  It's basically a tie.

That rich opening chord of Op 78, and the perfectly judged tempo in the entire first movement, married to that pristine control, means that Sohn nails it.  The punchy, vibrant, cutting Allegro vivace caps off a great rendition.  Sonoda sounds leaner, more metallic, but offers another master class in straight-ahead playing start to finish.  The seriousness of his playing always appeals, but it is the slight flexibility and even finer control that gives this one to Sohn.

Winner: Sohn

[Holden]

20% insight and 80% taste I would say, but never-the-less entertaining reading. Being an avid Beethovenian myself (with special interest in the piano sonatas) I also keep updated with new releases, and Todd's post has been most meaningful to me in terms of what not to waste my time on.

Yes, all our opinions relect a large proportion of what 'we' like in Beethoven's sonatas and this is influenced by many factors. For example, as a pianist and having played many of the sonatas I might have perspectives that might differ from those who don't play the piano. I also think that our initial hearing of a sonata tends to stick with us - imprinted on the mind as something to refer back to. My question for Todd is does he have a definitive performance that he consciously or subconsciously refers back to when he hears new performances?

[prémont]

Yes, all our opinions relect a large proportion of what 'we' like in Beethoven's sonatas and this is influenced by many factors. For example, as a pianist and having played many of the sonatas I might have perspectives that might differ from those who don't play the piano. I also think that our initial hearing of a sonata tends to stick with us - imprinted on the mind as something to refer back to. My question for Todd is does he have a definitive performance that he consciously or subconsciously refers back to when he hears new performances?

It's a challenging question, likely difficult for even Todd to answer. When I listen, I attempt to be unaware of all other recordings except the one I'm currently hearing. Whether I'm successful, I cannot be certain, but I do believe that most recordings of Beethoven's piano sonatas offer substantial value. Thus, I consider excessive "ranking" to be pointless, including categorizing into first, second, and third tiers. For instance, Todd places O'Conor and Lortie in the third tier, and Jando and Müller in the fourth tier. Such distinctions are futile and nonsensical and merely reflect Todd's personal taste.

[Florestan]

Such distinctions are futile and nonsensical

AMEN!

[Todd]

My question for Todd is does he have a definitive performance that he consciously or subconsciously refers back to when he hears new performances?

Annie Fischer's Hungaroton Op 57, otherwise no.

Thus, I consider excessive "ranking" to be pointless, including categorizing into first, second, and third tiers.

So?

[San Antone]

It's a challenging question, likely difficult for even Todd to answer. When I listen, I attempt to be unaware of all other recordings except the one I'm currently hearing. Whether I'm successful, I cannot be certain, but I do believe that most recordings of Beethoven's piano sonatas offer substantial value. Thus, I consider excessive "ranking" to be pointless, including categorizing into first, second, and third tiers. For instance, Todd places O'Conor and Lortie in the third tier, and Jando and Müller in the fourth tier. Such distinctions are futile and nonsensical and merely reflect Todd's personal taste.

Please take this with the spirit it is intended, but I think you are missing the point of Todd's threads. 

Of course they reflect his individual, personal, taste/opinion.  Each set he reviews is being compared to his "ideal" performance based on listening to dozens of sets - which I feel must be respected, for what it is worth.  Plus I consider Todd an excellent writer about music, specifically these Beethoven recordings.

There comes a point, when after listening to most of the available recordings, and spending time to formulate comparative reviews, that one's personal, individual taste takes on something more than merely subjective, and approaches a more meaningful opinion.  Yes, based on a specific set of criteria informed by one person's taste - but valuable nonetheless.

Those of you also claiming to be experienced with dozens of Beethoven complete piano sonata recordings have not attempted to do this in kind of depth surveying.  Todd has. 

I applaud this contribution to our forum, which after all is a venue with the express purpose for classical music listeners to post our opinions about recordings, and other related phenomena.

[prémont]

There comes a point, when after listening to most of the available recordings, and spending time to formulate comparative reviews, that one's personal, individual taste takes on something more than merely subjective, and approaches a more meaningful opinion.  Yes, based on a specific set of criteria informed by one person's taste - but valuable nonetheless.

Once I shared that opinion, but the more I listen, the more I realize that most recordings as to the musician are technically perfect and also possess their own artistic merit (of course the SQ may vary). But there is no ideal performance. I have my personal preferences (a matter of taste, really), but to declare some as superior or inferior and to claim that one's judgment is objective seems excessive. I regard Todd's writings as amusing, and they certainly are entertaining, yet I consider his rating system to be irrelevant.

[Todd]

I regard Todd's writings as amusing, and they certainly are entertaining, yet I consider his rating system to be irrelevant.

When was it claimed that the rating system was relevant? 

[Todd]

Match 8: Yu Kosuge vs Irina Mejoueva



Kosuge launches a broad take on the Allegro with perfect pacing.  All tempo relationships are flawless, low level dynamic gradations are superswell, and forte passages display heft.  Lyricism also appears in abundance.  Slow, steady, and calm playing pervades the opening of the Andante, with gently rollicking and pastorale playing the second section.  Kosuge keeps the outer sections of the Scherzo slow-ish and steady, and steams through the middle section.  She then ends with a Rondo of straight forward tempo and with thundering loud playing, though she does speed up notably during such passages.  Overall, this is a corker of a Pastorale. 

Mejoueva, the only woman to record two complete LvB sonata cycles at the time of this writing, starts with an advantage: she uses a 1922 Steinway D.  For whatever combination of reasons, pianos – or Steinways and Bechsteins, at least – built in the 1920s sound better to my ears than those built before and since.  Combine that with proper playing, and well, good things happen.  Right from the start, Mejoueva opts for a quicker overall tempo, tetchier rubato leading to less seamless flow, and just as many dynamic contrasts.  The thinner, brighter sound of the piano when compared to the closely miked modern grand results in a punchier, grittier feel, but one oozing refinement, too.  Um, yeah.  As good as Kosuge's swelling forte playing sounds, Mejoueva's has a sort of nimble yet smooth increase to peak volume that sounds more satisfying, and the right-hand runs are clean 'n' clear.  Mejoueva takes the Andante at a quick clip and really hits the accents hard.  The movement moves forward in a steady overall manner, it's just ear catching to hear all the different and shifting emphases.  The middle section sounds lighter and more playful to offer contrast.  The Scherzo is dispatched with speed and walloping dynamic contrasts and spicy sforzandi and no little rhythmic crackle.  The quick Rondo has some purposely stilted left hand playing to start and peppered throughout, but the effect enhances and does not detract from the proceedings, and the brisk tempo and punchy coda satisfy, indeed.  As good or even great as Kosuge's take sounds, Mejoueva's sounds better yet, and quite different.  So Mejoueva takes it, but these are both likely top twenty takes, and maybe better than that. 

Kosuge starts Op 78 with slow, slightly subdued, and definitely lovely cantabile playing and then amps things up, and her ability to deliver supremely steady playing really works well.  Even better, the all-upper register passage before the coda hints at the "little stars" of Op 111.  The quick and punchy Allegro vivace boasts sweet left hand playing and hints of bite.  This recording presents this piece as music border on late period style.  Right from the opening chord, Mejoueva delivers elevated playing of this sonata.  It is not weighed down, nor does it display late-LvB transcendence, but it seems rather more rarified than Opp 5x works.  More than Kosuge, and owing partly to that magnificent piano, Mejoueva's upper register playing sounds even more like the "little stars" and the bright playing sort of hypnotizes.  The Allegro vivace sounds prankish and punchy, with superb dynamic contrasts, clarity where needed, blurred paying where appropriate.  Again, as fantastic as Kosuge's playing is, Mejoueva's satisfies just that little bit more. 

Winner: Mejoueva

[prémont]

When was it claimed that the rating system was relevant?

By publishing your ratings, you apparently deem them relevant.

But your personal considerations about recordings of Beethoven's piano sonatas have always been interesting reading, even when I have completely disagreed with you.

[Todd]

By publishing your ratings, you apparently deem them relevant.

No, that is how you misinterpret the posts.

[San Antone]

Once I shared that opinion, but the more I listen, the more I realize that most recordings as to the musician are technically perfect and also possess their own artistic merit (of course the SQ may vary). But there is no ideal performance. I have my personal preferences (a matter of taste, really), but to declare some as superior or inferior and to claim that one's judgment is objective seems excessive. I regard Todd's writings as amusing, and they certainly are entertaining, yet I consider his rating system to be irrelevant.

My last on this - let's just let the thread be what it was intended. I also am interested in these kids of ranked surveys. About a decade ago I started the same kind of thing for the Liszt B Minor Sonata. 

I assembled over 250 recordings, from my own collection, Spotify, and YouTube. I devised a numerical rating system based on nine divisions of the work, and had at it.  I had accomplished about 90% of the work over a period a several months, with on marathon session over a weekend.  I had compiled all the data in an Excel spreadsheet, all, that is, but the last weekend's work when the thumb disk I had been using stopped working.

I sill have the last version of the data file I had backed up, and something of a top ten list based on half of the recordings - but have never gone back and tried to complete the project.

So my hat's off to Todd for his time and effort and sharing his results, personal though they be.

[prémont]

My last on this - let's just let the thread be what it was intended.

Agreed. Back to topic.

[Atriod]

About a decade ago I started the same kind of thing for the Liszt B Minor Sonata. 

I assembled over 250 recordings, from my own collection, Spotify, and YouTube. I devised a numerical rating system based on nine divisions of the work, and had at it.  I had accomplished about 90% of the work over a period a several months, with on marathon session over a weekend.  I had compiled all the data in an Excel spreadsheet, all, that is, but the last weekend's work when the thumb disk I had been using stopped working.

Liszt B minor Sonata is a pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty good piece of music that I was comparing as well but then got derailed by something else. Last I left off Claudio Arrau and Polina Leschenko were leading the pack, though a dark horse emerged (not a pianist I'm normally drawn to) with Stephen Hough.

For anything that doesn't violate HIPAA I now do everything on Google Docs; I haven't experienced any sort of data corruption yet aside from CD-Rs, GDocs just makes it so easy to access the information anywhere.

[Todd]

After two rounds of eliminations, it's time for the final smackdown with Op 110.  It'll be an A/B/C comparison.  No more ado will do, so:



Match 9: Schnabel vs Mejoueva vs Sohn

Schnabel starts with a brisk Moderato cantabile molto espressivo, though one where he starts quietly, properly contrasts dynamics, plays with a singing tone, and creates a transcendental sound.  And a remarkably smooth one, at that.  Schnabel then pushes the Allegro molto to an almost reckless degree, though excitement is undeniably high and of-the-moment.  The first arioso sounds elevated and serious and alternately quick and somberly held back.  The fugue is quick, and accurate and clear enough.  The second arioso sounds similar to the first, ends with nice enough repeated chords, then transitions to a slightly too rushed inverted fugue, but it works quite nicely. 

Sohn takes the opening movement more broadly, more beautifully, more initially delicately than Schnabel, and evokes a transcendental sound.  Obviously aided by superior modern recorded sound, the minutest dynamic contrasts sound fantastic, and Sohn sort of undulates the volume.  The swift but not rushed Allegro molto thunders and whispers where needed, benefits from superb clarity, and just sounds superb.  The final movement starts with an Arioso that immediately sounds elevated and transcendent, and Sohn shows himself as at home hammering out forte blasts or barely eking out the gentlest pianissimo notes.  The broad overall timing of the movement becomes more apparent in the crystal clear fugue, which also maintains an elevated, serious, at times austere feel.  The second arioso sounds more serious than the first, the repeated chords build up wonderfully, then very slowly transition to a hushed, ethereal start to the inverted fugue, which then speeds up, intensifies, all while remaining clear.  Nice.

Mejoueva starts off slow and with ample cantabile playing, then speeds up considerably, playing with a transcendental pulsing sound, and nifty upper register playing.  The return of slow playing sounds more elevated, and the whole movement maintains tension.  Mejoueva brings the left hand heat in the Allegro molto, playing at a pace that allows some of the heavy-hitting to breathe.  The first arioso is taken daringly slowly, with some uniquely accented right hand playing adding a sense of despondency to the music.  While transcendent, there's also something of a 106 Adagio feel.  The fugue is controlled, somber, and nicely clear.  The second arioso sounds tenser and definitely swifter than the first, and the repeated chords gradually build up, only reaching high levels in the last two.  The inverted fugue starts slow and meticulous, and gradually builds up to a strong coda.  Good stuff.

Winner: Sohn, by the narrowest of margins over Mejoueva.

After world-leading comparative analysis, it is clear that the first change I must make to my list is to banish Fazil Say from sets 11-21 and place him among the merely outstanding, regular second-tier cycles.  Sacrifices must be made, and all that.  It is also clear that Artur Schnabel, ejected from the Top Ten by Daniel-Ben Pienaar, must be compared to the top ten anew to determine if his banishment remains permanent.  Minsoo Sohn and Irina Mejoueva also deserve a shot at fights to the death with the old guard.  Yu Kosuge does as well.  The combatants have been selected.  Now I must find the time for the most important comparative listening in the history of the world.