Tchaikovsky

[Scion7]

Heck, why should anyone in 2016 have trusted me? 

Can we even trust you NOW?!?!!  BA-HA-HA-HA-HA!! 

[Atriod]

I actually reviewed a Sladkovsky album for MusicWeb back in 2016 and enjoyed it enough to be curious about his subsequent album releases. Don't know who Gregor Tassie is at all, but that's kind of Jens' point - with MW, you really need to keep track of the writers and their expertise (or lack). Heck, why should anyone in 2016 have trusted me? 

MusicWeb can get pretty crazy if you dig deep, like this massive Mahler 1 survey. http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/Feb/Mahler-sy1-survey-LD.pdf

That's the first time I heard of Andrea Battistoni and he is now my favorite current performing conductor.

[Brian]

MusicWeb can get pretty crazy if you dig deep, like this massive Mahler 1 survey. http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/Feb/Mahler-sy1-survey-LD.pdf

That's the first time I heard of Andrea Battistoni and he is now my favorite current performing conductor.

Wow, this is an amazing survey and truly does justice to the original MW Mahler survey by Tony Duggan. I didn't think Duggan's thoroughness and integrity could be surpassed, but here we go. This is giving me quite a few ideas for future listening. (Particularly interested to know that although this author doesn't love the F-X Roth "HIP" Titan, he does think the Roth performance with SWR is one of the best ever.)
EDIT: Is there a page that lists all the Mahler surveys? They for some reason don't have it listed on their "composer resources" page.

[Atriod]

Wow, this is an amazing survey and truly does justice to the original MW Mahler survey by Tony Duggan. I didn't think Duggan's thoroughness and integrity could be surpassed, but here we go. This is giving me quite a few ideas for future listening. (Particularly interested to know that although this author doesn't love the F-X Roth "HIP" Titan, he does think the Roth performance with SWR is one of the best ever.)
EDIT: Is there a page that lists all the Mahler surveys? They for some reason don't have it listed on their "composer resources" page.

I'm not sure, I came across this from a Google search.

[Brian]

I'm not sure, I came across this from a Google search.

Thanks. Found his survey of the Seventh as well. Regrettably the guy who updated the survey of the Fourth turned in only six pages of terse summaries of other people's reviews.

[DavidW]

Thanks. Found his survey of the Seventh as well. Regrettably the guy who updated the survey of the Fourth turned in only six pages of terse summaries of other people's reviews.

It seems like it is a major project and it will take years for all of the symphonies to be done.  It is astonishingly comprehensive!  I haven't seen anything like this since the Eroica project, and even then that was just looking at timings.

[Atriod]

I have finished my latest "Symphony Cycle Survey". You're here, so you know it's Tchaikovsky.


A Survey of Tchaikovsky Symphony Cycles

Without first looking, how many complete (1-6) sets do you think exist?

I'm always surprised how much work these end up being. And then it's still not complete or 100% accurate. Any discovered flaws would therefore be appreciated if brought to my attention! Thanks ever so much.

Great job with this list, I thought the tangled mess of Ken-Ichiro Kobayashi's recordings wouldn't be covered but you did a really good job. There is just one you missed  his most recent recording with Kobaken and His Friends Orchestra. I think Kazuo Yamada has a cycle spread across various labels. Takashi Asahina has recorded 4-6 several times.

For release dates where you have a question mark:

Kobayashi/Czech Phil. Tchaikovsky 5 - 2012 (Exton Lab Gold line, basically just fancier packaging in a Japan XRCD style digipak instead of a jewel case. So release dates for Exton releases can vary as they sometimes reissue the same live date several times in different packaging styles/catalog numbers)
Lazarev/Yomiuri Nippon Tchaikovsky 2 - 2007
Lazarev/Yomiuri Nippon Tchaikovsky 3 - 2006
Lazarev/Yomiuri Nippon Tchaikovsky 5 - 2005

My impressions with numerous Kobayashi recordings - super romantic, hot, heavy as Hurwitz calls them "panting" style. Some like the ones with the LSO are not that great, just too much mush. My favorites from him are the partial Arnhem cycle and the best of his 5s is with the Czech Phil (overall an uneven cycle though). The Manfred with Czech Phil is the greatest performance of it I've heard.

Lazarev - an easily accessible recording for him in the west is him conducting Shostakovich Symphony 11. Spirited interpretations of Tchaikovsky that don't go for any extremes.

I have been extremely impressed with what I've heard from the Japanese orchestras.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Great job with this list, I thought the tangled mess of Ken-Ichiro Kobayashi's recordings wouldn't be covered but you did a really good job. There is just one you missed  his most recent recording with Kobaken and His Friends Orchestra. I think Kazuo Yamada has a cycle spread across various labels. Takashi Asahina has recorded 4-6 several times.

Thanks so much for the help! Now I have to track down "Kobayashi V", though? Oy veh. :-) Fortunately, I can only find a Fifth with the "Kobaken" Orchestra, not a complete cycle. Phew. Or am I missing something? Similarly, I can only find a チャイコフスキー Fifth with  Kazuo Yamada, nothing else. (Sapporo, that one.)

So my strong feeling is by all means question his objectivity but he is writing from the standpoint of simple (gushing?) enthusiasm not personal economic gain!  I'm not going to criticise someone for being a fan.....

I should have pointed out much sooner, that I don't wish to imply monetary gain, by using the phrase "shill review". I'm more liberally interpreting it as something along the lines of "overdue praise for ulterior motives". Sometimes -- often -- the price is as low as flattery or the intent to flatter. But it is true: I'm hyperallergic to gushers, and thus perhaps too harsh in my response. Other than that: What Brian said! 

[Roasted Swan]

Thanks so much for the help! Now I have to track down "Kobayashi V", though? Oy veh. :-) Fortunately, I can only find a Fifth with the "Kobaken" Orchestra, not a complete cycle. Phew. Or am I missing something? Similarly, I can only find a チャイコフスキー Fifth with  Kazuo Yamada, nothing else. (Sapporo, that one.)


I should have pointed out much sooner, that I don't wish to imply monetary gain, by using the phrase "shill review". I'm more liberally interpreting it as something along the lines of "overdue praise for ulterior motives". Sometimes -- often -- the price is as low as flattery or the intent to flatter. But it is true: I'm hyperallergic to gushers, and thus perhaps too harsh in my response. Other than that: What Brian said! 

Fair enough - but take a moment at some point to check out the Sladkovsky performances I linked above.  Perhaps they are not at the level the MWI reviewer implies (ie best ever) but they are good and often very good so I'm pleased to know them.

[vers la flamme]

MusicWeb can get pretty crazy if you dig deep, like this massive Mahler 1 survey. http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/Feb/Mahler-sy1-survey-LD.pdf

That's the first time I heard of Andrea Battistoni and he is now my favorite current performing conductor.

Holy shit, this is a PhD thesis. I didn't know there were THAT many Mahler 1's out there.

[Atriod]

Holy shit, this is a PhD thesis. I didn't know there were THAT many Mahler 1's out there.

Hurwitz said his most watched videos by composer were Mahler and by a significant margin. Like when he'd release a review of a new Mahler album they'd be the first to get into the several thousands of views and this was when his channel was still quite early on.

Thanks so much for the help! Now I have to track down "Kobayashi V", though? Oy veh. :-) Fortunately, I can only find a Fifth with the "Kobaken" Orchestra, not a complete cycle. Phew. Or am I missing something? Similarly, I can only find a チャイコフスキー Fifth with  Kazuo Yamada, nothing else. (Sapporo, that one.)

I'll try and double check about Yamada, my friends might have included LPs in that comment.

The new fifth is a single recording not part of a cycle, just mentioned since I could see it becoming a complete or incomplete cycle since it's a "new" orchestra.

[dhibbard]

Great job with this list, I thought the tangled mess of Ken-Ichiro Kobayashi's recordings wouldn't be covered but you did a really good job. There is just one you missed  his most recent recording with Kobaken and His Friends Orchestra. I think Kazuo Yamada has a cycle spread across various labels. Takashi Asahina has recorded 4-6 several times.

For release dates where you have a question mark:

Kobayashi/Czech Phil. Tchaikovsky 5 - 2012 (Exton Lab Gold line, basically just fancier packaging in a Japan XRCD style digipak instead of a jewel case. So release dates for Exton releases can vary as they sometimes reissue the same live date several times in different packaging styles/catalog numbers)
Lazarev/Yomiuri Nippon Tchaikovsky 2 - 2007
Lazarev/Yomiuri Nippon Tchaikovsky 3 - 2006
Lazarev/Yomiuri Nippon Tchaikovsky 5 - 2005

My impressions with numerous Kobayashi recordings - super romantic, hot, heavy as Hurwitz calls them "panting" style. Some like the ones with the LSO are not that great, just too much mush. My favorites from him are the partial Arnhem cycle and the best of his 5s is with the Czech Phil (overall an uneven cycle though). The Manfred with Czech Phil is the greatest performance of it I've heard.

Lazarev - an easily accessible recording for him in the west is him conducting Shostakovich Symphony 11. Spirited interpretations of Tchaikovsky that don't go for any extremes.

I have been extremely impressed with what I've heard from the Japanese orchestras.

I would say perhaps 18 or 20...  I did a survey last year and watched some videos about the "best sounding ones"  so I acquired 6 of them.. but there are several good ones... Markevich and Svetlanov and Jarvi??

[Atriod]

I would say perhaps 18 or 20...  I did a survey last year and watched some videos about the "best sounding ones"  so I acquired 6 of them.. but there are several good ones... Markevich and Svetlanov and Jarvi??

Markevitch is a classic and sounds good. For Svetlanov I have the Melodiya cycle and the two cycles on Exton, one studio and one live. The Melodiya recordings are rough and the performances rather variable. The live Exton has some orchestral mistakes they didn't bother to fix but it's absolutely thrilling ala Mravinsky or Gatti. The studio Exton is fantastic as well. I think I have only heard Paavo and Neeme Jarvi in the ballet music, I might have streamed some symphonies but so long ago I can't remember.

[vers la flamme]

Can't say that Tchaikovsky's symphonies have yet to fully click with me, but I do have two cycles that I listen to from time to time: Markevitch/London/Philips and Karajan/Berlin/DG. I like both for different reasons but I think the Markevitch is better. Also have the Mravinsky/Leningrad 4/5/6, which makes me wish they'd recorded the first three.

[lordlance]

I heard Tchaikovsky PC1 yesterday by Kissin and Karajan. Considering how old Karajan was by then I am not surprised by the slower tempi and thick sludge-like sound which normally would be luxurious (and why his Wagner is so good) but here is at odds with how concertos should be conducted (he's generally pretty bad at concertos - a notable exception being his fantastic Triple Concerto with Zeltser/Mutter/Ma.)

I am now listening to his earlier recording with Weissenberg from '73. I guess it's not as bad but Karajan still doesn't get the lightness (and by that I don't mean Mozartian fleetness. I really just mean the orchestral texture being so dense. It's ponderous.)

One might ask why would I bother with a second recording when the first one was so bad but I have had the EMI box for ages and just never gotten around to all his recordings. For now this is my penance much like listening to Bruckner 9 finale (took me 4 tries to get through that one. That was even worse.)

[DavidW]

I heard Tchaikovsky PC1 yesterday by Kissin and Karajan. Considering how old Karajan was by then I am not surprised by the slower tempi and thick sludge-like sound which normally would be luxurious (and why his Wagner is so good) but here is at odds with how concertos should be conducted

The recording with Berman is fantastic though (haven't heard Kissin but I think Karajan was much older then).  And I think he has also recorded the concerto with Richter as well... I think Karajan has an affinity for the piece.  I think out of the what four times he has recorded it you might have picked the one dud.

[DavidW]

@nico1616 I can't find your post but I swear you recommended K. Petrenko's Tchaikovsky 6.  I listened to it last night and it was as driven and passionate as Mravinsky's but with the benefit of modern sound!  I was so floored how absolutely great the recording was that I instantly listened to his Rach 2 and queued up more from Shostakovich, Mahler etc. this conductor is something special!

[lordlance]

@nico1616 I can't find your post but I swear you recommended K. Petrenko's Tchaikovsky 6.  I listened to it last night and it was as driven and passionate as Mravinsky's but with the benefit of modern sound!  I was so floored how absolutely great the recording was that I instantly listened to his Rach 2 and queued up more from Shostakovich, Mahler etc. this conductor is something special!

I have been following him on DCH and the results have been mixed. I thought he was exactly what a major modern orchestra like BPO needs, i.e. someone who excels at Romantic repertoire (Rattle's successful career is somewhat puzzling considering he is essentially a modernist -- his central repertoire stuff is almost always either workmanlike or bad.)

That has not quite come true. His Beethoven 5 was meh. The Beethoven 9 and Mozart 29 nothing special (A common description for most Rattle Romantic performances -- and this is coming from someone who loves Rattle!) 

What WAS fantastic was Leonore Overture No. 3. Amazing stuff. 

[DavidW]

I have been following him on DCH and the results have been mixed. I thought he was exactly what a major modern orchestra like BPO needs, i.e. someone who excels at Romantic repertoire (Rattle's successful career is somewhat puzzling considering he is essentially a modernist -- his central repertoire stuff is almost always either workmanlike or bad.)

That has not quite come true. His Beethoven 5 was meh. The Beethoven 9 and Mozart 29 nothing special (A common description for most Rattle Romantic performances -- and this is coming from someone who loves Rattle!)

What WAS fantastic was Leonore Overture No. 3. Amazing stuff.

Beethoven and Mozart are classical era though... It seems like K. Petrenko has focused more on Russian romantics and neoromantics at least by his discography.

[AnotherSpin]

@nico1616 I can't find your post but I swear you recommended K. Petrenko's Tchaikovsky 6.  I listened to it last night and it was as driven and passionate as Mravinsky's but with the benefit of modern sound!  I was so floored how absolutely great the recording was that I instantly listened to his Rach 2 and queued up more from Shostakovich, Mahler etc. this conductor is something special!

To put Mravinsky's and K.Petrenko's performance of Tchaikovsky on the same level seems too liberal to me.