Tchaikovsky

[SonicMan46]

Peter's Piano Music - looking at the 3 'complete sets' shown below that have been posted here recently - currently, I own just 2 CDs of this music (Richter in a 'general' program & Howard in the Sonatas) - looking on Amazon, the pricing (USD) for new sets are: Ponti, $17, 5 discs; Postnikova, $22, 7 discs; Lisitsa, $32, 10 discs - interestingly about 3 bucks/disc.  Reading a few reviews, the two ladies w/ more recent recordings and better sound seem to be preferred; I'd be in the market for just one of these sets, so curious what others might pick if only one choice?  Thanks for any comments - Dave

   

[Roasted Swan]

I'd be in the market for just one of these sets, so curious what others might pick if only one choice?  Thanks for any comments - Dave

   

Ponti is an acquired taste - you either respond to his old-school 'keyboard-lion' style or not.  If you do - which I do - everyone else can seem a little pale next to him.  Subtle or nuanced it ain't.  But that said little of Tchaikovsky's solo keyboard music could be said to contain his very finest music so perhaps this OTT approach helps makes the most of what there is.....?

[mc ukrneal]

Peter's Piano Music - looking at the 3 'complete sets' shown below that have been posted here recently - currently, I own just 2 CDs of this music (Richter in a 'general' program & Howard in the Sonatas) - looking on Amazon, the pricing (USD) for new sets are: Ponti, $17, 5 discs; Postnikova, $22, 7 discs; Lisitsa, $32, 10 discs - interestingly about 3 bucks/disc.  Reading a few reviews, the two ladies w/ more recent recordings and better sound seem to be preferred; I'd be in the market for just one of these sets, so curious what others might pick if only one choice?  Thanks for any comments - Dave

   

Whichever you pick, one is enough for most of the music. I cannot compare them though, because I only have the Postnikova. I like it and she certainly plays well. When I compare her to other performances I have (Pletnev, Richter, etc), she more than holds her own. I suspect that all of them are pretty good as a minimum, so I'd likely pick one in better sound. There are also plenty of bits and pieces from the set on youtube if you want to sample, like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/v/MgFh8esCO0w

[SonicMan46]

Ponti is an acquired taste - you either respond to his old-school 'keyboard-lion' style or not.  If you do - which I do - everyone else can seem a little pale next to him.  Subtle or nuanced it ain't.  But that said little of Tchaikovsky's solo keyboard music could be said to contain his very finest music so perhaps this OTT approach helps makes the most of what there is.....?

Whichever you pick, one is enough for most of the music. I cannot compare them though, because I only have the Postnikova. I like it and she certainly plays well. When I compare her to other performances I have (Pletnev, Richter, etc), she more than holds her own. I suspect that all of them are pretty good as a minimum, so I'd likely pick one in better sound. There are also plenty of bits and pieces from the set on youtube if you want to sample, like this one: .........................

Thanks Guys for the comments above - this afternoon, I mirrored my iPad to the den stereo and listened to the two ladies on Spotify - picked the first four Seasons and a couple of Sonata movements, and on headphones - both sounded fine to me although I slightly favored Postnikova and the Amazon price is a bargain; so decision made.  Dave

[Todd]

Disc 4, The Seasons.  Why listen to one version when you can listen to three?

Lisitsa plays the pieces with enough individual character to make the work hold together well.  Starting off with a quite lovely January, moving through with some boisterous playing, a quite slow June Barcarolle of no little beauty if perhaps not perfect structural coherence, and including some (faux) ruggedness in August, the whole thing jells.  The Bosendorfer is probably not the ideal instrument for the music, but it works well.

But not quite as well as Osetinskaya.  I'm not sure what piano she uses - it doesn't sound like a Steinway D, so maybe a Steinway C or Bechstein, or maybe just a less than ideally recorded Steinway D - and the recording is close and dry, but Osetinskaya offers more focus on fine details.  Her dynamic gradations sound more meticulous, and some of the pieces have a bit more life.  She manages to play the Barcarolle even more slowly, but it holds together a bit better.  It's a mighty good version.

However, Eschenbach's is better yet.  The older pianist deploys his ability to play lovelier than the music requires sparingly, but he never sounds less that lovely.  His tempi are often ever so slightly brisker, and everything is immaculately well played.  It might be possible to say that the Slavic women sound more idiomatic, or not, but Eschenbach had his big career as a pianist for a reason.

Ultimately, all three versions work on their own terms.

[Todd]

Disc 5 from Lisitsa, Children's Album Op 39 and 6 Morceaux, op 51.  She plays Op 39 well enough, with light touch as appropriate.  The miniatures are never too heavy.  They're nice for what they are.  Osetinskaya does more with the collection.  The close, dry sound, and the more micro-managed playing doesn't necessarily make the pieces more substantive, but each one, or at least most of them, are more characterful, and sound better prepared.  I wonder if this is a case where Lisitsa learned and played them to finish the set whereas Osetinskaya selected the collection because some of the pieces have more meaning.  It sounds that way.

Op 51 is much more.  Here's some Tchaikovsky solo piano music that fully satisfies.  Indubitably romantic in nature, with some gorgeous tunes mixed in, each piece is the perfect length and can be quite affecting.  Lisitsa coaxes some lovely sounds from her Bosendorfer, a Steinway would be better.  A Bechstein or properly maintained Fazioli, too.  I'd love to hear either a very interventionist pianist tackle them - Barto or Pogorelich - or a pianist who can deliver sumptuous tone just to deliver sumptuous tone - Volodos or Anderszewski. 

[Todd]

Disc 6.  More Morceaux.  So many.  A dozen.  And a Dumka!  The dozen Morceaux all come off well, though as a group they seem less inspired than Op 51.  The Dumka comes off better, with a wider variety of expression and occasionally invigorating music.  Lisitsa handles it all nicely. 

[Brian]

Disc 6.  More Morceaux.  So many.  A dozen.  And a Dumka!  The dozen Morceaux all come off well, though as a group they seem less inspired than Op 51.  The Dumka comes off better, with a wider variety of expression and occasionally invigorating music.  Lisitsa handles it all nicely.

The Dumka is my favorite Tchaikovsky solo piano piece and would be my performer yardstick - there's also a crackin' good performance by Eschenbach as an encore to his recording of the Sixth Symphony in Philly. (A recommendable SACD all around.)

[Todd]

The Dumka is my favorite Tchaikovsky solo piano piece and would be my performer yardstick - there's also a crackin' good performance by Eschenbach as an encore to his recording of the Sixth Symphony in Philly. (A recommendable SACD all around.)

I forgot to A/B for the Dumka with Eschenbach.  I will likely have to rectify that situation.

TD:




Disc 7.  Eighteen more Morceaux, from Op 72.  It looks Op 51 may serve as the high-water mark, though that said this set has a nice variety.  Lisitsa handles the more extroverted pieces with ease, so it was really more impactful to hear her coax some gentler sounds, with an at times lovely legato from her Bosendorfer in the slower pieces.  Still, I think a different instrument could yield even better results.  Still, a most enjoyable listen.

[Todd]

Disc 8.  69 tracks containing a waltz, a theme and variations, 50 Russian Folk Songs for piano four hands (Lisitsa is joined by her husband Alexei Kuznetsoff), and various other short pieces.  Everything is played nicely enough, but it's mostly slight.  It would make a great background disc to listen to while doing chores.  Quiet chores - you'd still want to hear the music.

[Todd]

Skipping to disc 10, to save The Nutcracker for last.  This disc contains seven transcriptions of orchestral or opera music.  The Potpourri on Themes from the Opera "The Voyevoda" is the real find on the disc.  While not profound, it moves from theme to theme quite nicely and hints at the possibilities in the score.  The smaller pieces are all nice, and the 1812 Overture comes off marginally better than the orchestral version, though I still dislike the piece.  The highlight of the disc, and it is a true highlight, is the Marche slave.  Tchaikovsky gives Liszt a run for his money in the transcription game, which is reinforced by Lisitsa's superb playing, which is impressively nimble and strong. 

[Todd]

Disc 9, the transcription of The Nutcracker, on one super-sized eighty-six minute disc.  Lisitsa has the chops to handle the music with ease, and the Bosendorfer keeps things clean and clear much of the time, and adds a bit of heft where needed.  The rhythmic component of the more vigorous dances is quite fine.  I doubt I spin the disc a lot, but it did get me thinking that maybe I should try Stewart Goodyear's transcription.

Overall, Lisitsa's ten disc set is a worthwhile addition to my collection.  I will never collect Tchaikovsky piano music, but I'm glad that I can listen to any piece at any time.  The bargain price makes the release all the more appealing.

[ChopinBroccoli]

I love Tchaikovsky ... Stravinsky himself said it best "he was the most Russian of us all" ... maybe the greatest melody writer of all time

I know exactly why some people hate him and it's precisely the same reason I love him.  PC 1 is fantastic; the uncut PC 2 is crazily underrated and underperformed (and really more of a Triple Concerto); Symphonies 4-6 are all major, unique works; Romeo and Juliet is one of the finest tone poems; Three major ballets that have never fallen out of favor... the Violin Concerto is among the most famous (though I'm not big on Violin concertos for whatever reason)

Clearly a major composer with an utterly unique voice and character.  People insist on second guessing him because he's popular and because he didn't strictly adhere to musical development in the Sonata form.  It's been that way forever. 

Sometimes great art ends up being popular ... Beethoven is popular too, "Kind Of Blue" is popular... any musician or committed music "appreciator" that denies either is a silly person and I feel the same towards anyone who denies Tchaikovsky.

Not saying you have to love his music but you can't responsibly deny its genius

[Florestan]

I love Tchaikovsky ...

Sometimes great art ends up being popular ... Beethoven is popular too,

1. Beethoven is popular for reasons quite different than those beyond Tchaikovsky's popularity.

2. The sharp distinction between "great art" and "popular art" is a post-Beethoven fabrication. Tchaikovsky would have had nothing of it, not to mention Mozart or Haydn, for whom it would have been utterly incomprehensible.

[ChopinBroccoli]

1. Beethoven is popular for reasons quite different than those beyond Tchaikovsky's popularity.

2. The sharp distinction between "great art" and "popular art" is a post-Beethoven fabrication. Tchaikovsky would have had nothing of it, not to mention Mozart or Haydn, for whom it would have been utterly incomprehensible.

Is it a fabrication?  Can't see how... The Monkees outsold the Beatles in the 60s

Pachlabel's Canon is a ridiculous composition and is probably more popular worldwide than all of say Brahms combined

[Florestan]

Is it a fabrication?  Can't see how...

According to Richard Taruskin (a musicologist I greatly admire, and with whom I incidentally happen to agree on most issues), the history of the 19th century music is one of gradual but inexorable encroachment of sublime upon beautiful, and great upon pleasant, music. If interested to read him, please PM me.

Pachlabel's Canon is a ridiculous composition and is probably more popular worldwide than all of say Brahms combined

I beg to differ. Brahms' Fifth Hungarian dance is probably more popular than Pachelbel's Canon --- and both of them are far from being ridiculous.

[ChopinBroccoli]

According to Richard Taruskin (a musicologist I greatly admire, and with whom I incidentally happen to agree on most issues), the history of the 19th century music is one of gradual but inexorable encroachment of sublime upon beautiful, and great upon pleasant, music. If interested to read him, please PM me.

I beg to differ. Brahms' Fifth Hungarian dance is probably more popular than Pachelbel's Canon --- and both of them are far from being ridiculous.

Brahms fifth dance is great... Pachlabel's Canon is not.  IMO, it couldn't be more tedious

As for Tchaikovsky, I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at... I'm not debating how or why naysayers have always nibbled at his heels.  It seems to me that is the debate you wish to have.  Call it a fabrication all you like, what does it have to do with the naysayers existing?  The fact of the matter is they do exist.  My above assessment of Tchaikovsky makes it crystal clear that I am unmoved by their objections to his music regardless of the origin points of those objections (which seems to be where you are focusing) ... simply put, I think Tchaikovsky was a great composer and don't find the polemics against him compelling.  Since I don't find them compelling, it would be odd to ponder further the various motivations behind those polemics.

[SymphonicAddict]

I love Tchaikovsky ... Stravinsky himself said it best "he was the most Russian of us all" ... maybe the greatest melody writer of all time

I know exactly why some people hate him and it's precisely the same reason I love him.  PC 1 is fantastic; the uncut PC 2 is crazily underrated and underperformed (and really more of a Triple Concerto); Symphonies 4-6 are all major, unique works; Romeo and Juliet is one of the finest tone poems; Three major ballets that have never fallen out of favor... the Violin Concerto is among the most famous (though I'm not big on Violin concertos for whatever reason)

Clearly a major composer with an utterly unique voice and character.  People insist on second guessing him because he's popular and because he didn't strictly adhere to musical development in the Sonata form.  It's been that way forever. 

Not saying you have to love his music but you can't responsibly deny its genius

I tend to agree with you. The frequent complaint about him is the saccharine thing and the "lack" of development in his music (or rather little contrapuntal development). If it were true, I wouldn't care for it. All his music shines for the endless memorability and real sense of passion in many of his works. His music resonates with me powerfully, no matter if he is overplayed or if there is an excess of overfamiliarity, I love almost every single piece from his.

[Florestan]

I think Tchaikovsky was a great composer

He's one of my top 10 favorite composers, and top 3 favorite Russian composers. I relish his "syrupy sentimentalism" big time and I agree he's one of the greatest melodists ever.

My point was simply that people love him for reasons different than those for which they love Beethoven. Nobody ever accused Beethoven of being "sentimental", nor did they claim Beethoven was a great melodist. It's no coincidence that Tchaikovsky himself praised Mozart no end while he held Beethoven in mere high esteem --- a stance I share entirely.

Tchaikovsky's music is beautiful and pleasant ---as is Mozart's. Beethoven's music is sublime and great --- as is Wagner's. Give me the former over the latter any time.

[ChopinBroccoli]

I tend to agree with you. The frequent complaint about him is the saccharine thing and the "lack" of development in his music (or rather little contrapuntal development). If it were true, I wouldn't care for it. All his music shines for the endless memorability and real sense of passion in many of his works. His music resonates with me powerfully, no matter if he is overplayed or if there is an excess of overfamiliarity, I love almost every single piece from his.

Agree... his music moves me and touches my conscience... that's all I need