Discovering the Baroque

[atardecer]

Northern German Baroque sucks. Vivaldi over Bach for me.

Well, Bach was aware of and integrated the Baroque styles from the various regions into his music, including the music of Vivaldi.

András Schiff suggested Bach is the greatest European of all time, and his picture should be on the flag of the European Union, because he did something politicians fail at by successfully unifying all of these different countries into his style.

[Florestan]

Well, Bach was aware of and integrated the Baroque styles from the various regions into his music, including the music of Vivaldi.

András Schiff suggested Bach is the greatest European of all time, and his picture should be on the flag of the European Union, because he did something politicians fail at by successfully unifying all of these different countries into his style.

Sounds more like Telemann than Bach to me... 

[Jo498]

It's more true of Telemann, yes.
It's to an extent also true of Handel, who probably wrote more that is "pure italian" than the other two but whose lateish famous works are also a fusion. And this also applies to most less known German composers because there was no "German" instrumental style (except for organ music maybe), so they all had to somewhat adopt (mostly) Italian and (some) French influences.

The central thing about Bach is that he wrote more than anyone else at his time in a way compatible with what later ages thought of as great music, i.e. everything as thoroughly "worked out" as possible.

This was against the practice of the time, especially in opera, where even someone like Handel who was very flexible and pragmatic sometimes got into trouble with his singers because he didn't leave them all the liberties they were accustomed to.

[atardecer]

I hear Vivaldi influence in some of Bach's music, especially some of the concertos. I'm not aware of any Telemann pieces that sound like that style of Italian Baroque (or Handel for that matter), though there is a lot of Telemann I haven't listened to, he composed a lot of works.

[71 dB]

Italian/Italianate, French and Austrian Baroque rocks, Northern German Baroque sucks. Vivaldi over Bach for me.

Your opinion sucks.  There is hardly any baroque music that sucks. I enjoy all of it. Some more than some other, but I like all of it. Nothing of it sucks to me.

[DavidW]

Welcome @nethanpaul86!   

[chrisinsuffolk]

This is a fantastic selection of Baroque music! It's clear you've put a lot of thought and listening into curating this playlist.  From the iconic Brandenburg Concertos by Bach to the dramatic Monteverdi madrigal, you've captured the range and beauty of the Baroque era.

If you're interested in further exploration, some listeners who enjoy Bach also gravitate towards other Baroque composers like Handel (known for Messiah and Water Music) or Vivaldi (famous for The Four Seasons).  Also, within Bach's cantatas, there are many hidden gems –  perhaps you could share which ones resonated most with you on this playlist?

Thanks for your kind comments. Yes I have invested many hundreds of hours into this list and I have reviewed it meticulously several times through so it flows from piece to piece.

I must say the first few hours of the playlist are really magical for me and I start my working day listening to this section more often that not. As to my favourite Cantata recordings, I especially enjoy conductors such as Rifkin who's arrangements are more sparse in nature, I like to hear individual voicings. And as to my favourite Bach recording this is probably Bach's Magnificat by Coro della Radio Svizzera, WOW!

The Bach includes on this playlist are around 3/5 complete from a review of his entire oeuvre.  I made a Complete Bach playlist with the cantatas in liturgical order which I have used as a source for this playlist, so the later (numbered) cantatas are yet to be included (as I have reviewed and extracted up to around track 2220 out of the 3422 tracks). I intend to tackle the remainder perhaps next year. This explains why the playlist is so Bach heavy. Everything takes time as in the Baroque Meditation playlist I have tried to create themes with groups of recordings.

At some point I do want to comprehensively review Handel and Vivaldi amongst other composers including Buxtehude to incorporate into this list, but this will no doubt take several years!

By the way I found the Bach cantatas website useful for discussions on the best recordings as a start point and now I can see GMG is another great resource with its erudite contributors!

[Jo498]

I hear Vivaldi influence in some of Bach's music, especially some of the concertos. I'm not aware of any Telemann pieces that sound like that style of Italian Baroque (or Handel for that matter), though there is a lot of Telemann I haven't listened to, he composed a lot of works.

Vivaldi was only one of the Italian styles and might be more "pure" in Bach. Bach's concerti tend to follow Vivaldi closely in form but the music has to be put in a solid Thuringian 4 voice setting (as someone else wrote).

Handel lived and worked for several years in Italy; I doubt that I could tell one of the >100 mostly solo cantatas he wrote there apart from Bononcini or Caldara or A. Scarlatti (unless I knew the specific piece).
There are also Vivaldian features (like rapid unisono passages) in some of his earliest concerto movements like the piece called sonata à 5 that is half a violin concerto or in the earliest pieces in op.3 (#1 and/or #2 have these unisono runs). As Handel was chiefly a vocal/opera composer and his best known concerti (op.6 and organ) and suites (fireworks) are more mixed in style (that op.6 is basically "Corellian" is very misleading, I think), it's not quite as clear but he is mostly Italian. Einstein called him the greatest Italian composer of his time. That is an exaggeration, of course; it seems impossible to deny that the English oratorios are a stylistic fusion and the difference to the early Italian pieces ("La Resurrezione", "Trionfo...", "Aci, Galatea e Polifemo") is obvious for a layperson like me.

[Florestan]

Handel lived and worked for several years in Italy; I doubt that I could tell one of the >100 mostly solo cantatas he wrote there apart from Bononcini or Caldara or A. Scarlatti (unless I knew the specific piece).

In this respect, he had a successor in Meyerbeer, whose Italian operas are, on the whole, virtually indistinguishable from Rossini's.

[ritter]

In this respect, he had a successor in Meyerbeer, whose Italian operas are, on the whole, virtually indistinguishable from Rossini's.

A very, very debatable assertion, Andrei!

Where Meyerbeer and Handel coincide is in their capacity to cater to the goût du jour. They had great commercial acumen (good for them!).

[Jo498]

There are probably experts who could tell that the young Handel had not yet full assimilated the Italian styles or mixed between Venetian, Roman and Neapolitan (all of which were distinct) in a way an Italian would not have done. But that's beyond my knowledge and powers of distinction.

But I think the difference to the style of the English oratorios is audible, already in  the English Acis & Galatea that has a "simplicity" or straightforwardness different from the similarly pastoral Italian pieces. E.g. the virtuoso Polifemo vs. the funnily coarse and rustic Polypheme in the English piece.

[Florestan]

A very, very debatable assertion, Andrei!

What is very, very debatable, Rafael? That Meyerbeer's Italian operas, written while he lived in Italy, are indistinguishable from Rossini's? Or that in this respect (you might have missed this key part of my post) Meyerbeer resembles Handel, whose Italian cantatas, written while he lived in Italy, are indistinguishable from those of the Italians themselves?? Because these are the only points I made and frankly I don't see what's debatable about any of them, let alone very, very debatable.

And good day.

[ritter]

What is very, very debatable, Rafael? That Meyerbeer's Italian operas, written while he lived in Italy, are indistinguishable from Rossini's? Or that in this respect (you might have missed this key part of my post) Meyerbeer resembles Handel, whose Italian cantatas, written while he lived in Italy, are indistinguishable from those of the Italians themselves?? Because these are the only points I made and frankly I don't see what's debatable about any of them, let alone very, very debatable.

And good day.

The first part, that Italian Meyerbeer is indistinguishable from Rossini. Giusto ciel!

[Florestan]

The first part, that Italian Meyerbeer is indistinguishable from Rossini. Giusto ciel!

Are you willing to submit yourself to a blind test? 

[ritter]

Are you willing to submit yourself to a blind test? 

I'm too busy for that... And let's not further derail this topic.

[Florestan]

I'm too busy for that...

Exactly as I thought. 

[Cato]

Hello everyone, I hope you are good!

I have spent a lot of time researching and listening to Bach cantatas as well as other works, culminating in the playlist below. I like others arrived at Baroque music after going round the houses in classical/romantic etc music and WOW after I began exploring beyond the favorites my mind was officially blown by the quality and sublime beauty of so many works from the (150 years!) of the Baroque era. I feel very lucky we have this music and amazing recordings to enjoy.

https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5PoCStl1p2KypDNfHjpM9j

If you have any opinions and/or thoughts I would love to hear them!

You all take care, and thanks for your time!

Allow me to recommend Jean-Phillipe RAMEAU:

[brewski]

As someone who listened to a lot of Vivaldi as a teenager (and played a bit), I got a little burnt out. Thankfully much later, I discovered Rinaldo Alessandrini and Concerto Italiano. Their commercial recording of the Gloria reignited my interest, and I just discovered this beautiful film version by Philippe Béziat.

-Bruce

[Jo498]

One needs to know or hire a good soprano, alto, oboe and trumpet? player but the choral part of the Gloria is very doable by lay/church choirs (if one doesn't take the breakneck tempi of Alessandrini!), not nearly as demanding as Bach or some Handel. It's a wonderfully varied and effective piece.

[ritter]

One needs to know or hire a good soprano, alto, oboe and trumpet? player but the choral part of the Gloria is very doable by lay/church choirs (if one doesn't take the breakneck tempi of Alessandrini!), not nearly as demanding as Bach or some Handel. It's a wonderfully varied and effective piece.

Indeed, as a teenager I sang in the chorus of the Gloria (professional orchestra and soloists, amateur chorus).