Nietzsche criticizing GMG

[Henk]

Just letting you know what Nietzsche thinks of GMG, probably to your annoyance. I'm on his side. 

'The Art-Need of the Second Order.—The people may have something of what can be called art-need, but it is small, and can be cheaply satisfied. On the whole, the remnant of art (it must be honestly confessed) suffices for this need. Let us consider, for example, the kind of melodies and songs in which the most vigorous, unspoiled, and true-hearted classes of the population find genuine delight; let us live among shepherds, cowherds, peasants, huntsmen, soldiers, and sailors, and give ourselves the answer. And in the country town, just in the houses that are the homes of inherited civic virtue, is it not the worst music at present produced that is loved and, one might say, cherished? He who speaks of deeper needs and unsatisfied yearnings for art among the people, as it is, is a crank or an impostor. Be honest! Only in exceptional men is there now an art-need in the highest sense—because art is once more on the down-grade, and human powers and hopes are for the time being directed to other matters.—Apart from this, outside the populace, there exists indeed, in the higher and highest strata of society, a broader and more comprehensive art-need, but of the second order. Here there is a sort of artistic commune, which possibly means to be sincere. But let us look at the elements! They are in general the more refined malcontents, who attain no genuine pleasure in themselves; the cultured, who have not become free enough to dispense with the consolations of religion, and yet do not find its incense sufficiently fragrant; the half-aristocratic, who are too weak to combat by a heroic conversion or renunciation the one fundamental error of their lives or the pernicious bent of their characters; the highly gifted, who think themselves too dignified to be of service by modest activity, and are too lazy for real, self-sacrificing work; girls who cannot create for themselves a satisfactory sphere of duties; women who have tied themselves by a light-hearted or nefarious marriage, and know that they are not tied securely enough; scholars, physicians, merchants, officials who specialised too early and never gave their lives a free enough scope—who do their work efficiently, it is true, but with a worm gnawing at their hearts; finally, all imperfect artists—these are nowadays the true needers of art! What do they really desire from art? Art is to drive away hours and moments of discomfort, boredom, half-bad conscience, and, if possible, transform the faults of their lives and characters into faults of world-destiny. Very different were the Greeks, who realised in their art the outflow and overflow of their own sense of well-being and health, and loved to see their perfection once more from a standpoint outside themselves. They were led to art by delight in themselves; our contemporaries—by disgust of themselves.'
(Human, all too human, part II)

[SimonNZ]

Thanks for reminding me why I think Nietzsche was a collassal idiot.

Something bothering you about GMG at the moment? Perhaps you should say what it is in your own words.

[Jo498]

Nietzsche's problem was that he was no Achilles or Pericles neither Pindar, Goethe or Beethoven which would have been nore appropriate for a "Great Man" in his time than a warrior.

He was in fact best at what he came to despise, namely youngest professor of Greek, obviously a "second order" profession obsesses with a glorious but long distant past, dried up into a job for word counting philologists and a stick for disciplining schoolboys (rosa, rosae, rosae, rosam, rosa...). Or as a mask for the artistic secondariness and impotence of his time, a late winter period in a civilization unlike the spring and summer of Homer or Sophocles.

So he was a highly competent "second order man" who longed for nothing more than being a "first order man". Maybe he managed it in a sense by departing from academic philology but it all too often sounds that he never got over it.
Of course he had a very keen eye for the faults of his time and their people, because at the core he suffered from very similar ones, only more painfully aware of them because of his superior intelligence and erudition.

[Henk]

Thanks for reminding me why I think Nietzsche was a collassal idiot.

Something bothering you about GMG at the moment? Perhaps you should say what it is in your own words.

Not so much that bothers me. But I want to focus on making art and prefer not to be active here anymore, since I feel addressed by Nietzsche. It's the better choice for me, personally speaking. I want to bore myself and have a feeling of existing, enjoying my glass of water, have a walk, read some pages of good philosophy (not necessarily Nietzsche, Agamben at the moment, who is very humane, beautiful, poetical texts) and, to bear the night, listening to some music and even enjoying myself intensely.

[Henk]

I am not one to quote the Bible, but I find this verse too fitting:

First Corinthians, Chapter 11, Verse 13 (New Revised Standard):

"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways."

I think that sums up Nietzsche well.

'Creators are hard.' (Nietzsche)

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Not so much that bothers me. But I want to focus on making art and prefer not to be active here anymore, since I feel addressed by Nietzsche. It's the better choice for me, personally speaking. I want to bore myself and have a feeling of existing, enjoying my glass of water, have a walk, read some pages of good philosophy (not necessarily Nietzsche, Agamben at the moment, who is very humane, beautiful, poetical texts) and, to bear the night, listening to some music and even enjoying myself intensely.

I get it.  Enjoy your time spending more time doing other things.

All the best to you,

PD

[Henk]

I get it.  Enjoy your time spending more time doing other things.

All the best to you,

PD

Thank you, PD.

[Henk]

Hard is not the word I'd use for most creators I've interacted with. I think petulant is a more apt description.

'175.
Continued Existence of Art.—Why, really, does a creative art nowadays continue to exist? Because the majority who have hours of leisure (and such an art is for them only) think that they cannot fill up their time without music, theatres and picture-galleries, novels and poetry. Granted that one could keep them from this indulgence, either they would strive less eagerly for leisure, and the invidious sight of the rich would be less common (a great gain for the stability of society), or they would have leisure, but would learn to reflect on what can be learnt and unlearnt: on their work, for instance, their associations, the pleasure they could bestow. All the world, with the exception of the artist, would in both cases reap the advantage.—Certainly, there are many vigorous, sensible readers who could take objection to this. Still, it must be said on behalf of the coarse and malignant that the author himself is concerned with this protest [EDIT Henk: Nietzsche is concerned with objection in the whole book] , and that there is in his book much to be read that is not actually written down therein.' (Nietzsche, 'Human, all too human, part 2')

[Florestan]

'175.
Continued Existence of Art.—Why, really, does a creative art nowadays continue to exist? Because the majority who have hours of leisure (and such an art is for them only) think that they cannot fill up their time without music, theatres and picture-galleries, novels and poetry. Granted that one could keep them from this indulgence, either they would strive less eagerly for leisure, and the invidious sight of the rich would be less common (a great gain for the stability of society), or they would have leisure, but would learn to reflect on what can be learnt and unlearnt: on their work, for instance, their associations, the pleasure they could bestow. All the world, with the exception of the artist, would in both cases reap the advantage.—Certainly, there are many vigorous, sensible readers who could take objection to this. Still, it must be said on behalf of the coarse and malignant that the author himself is concerned with this protest [EDIT Henk: Nietzsche is concerned with objection in the whole book] , and that there is in his book much to be read that is not actually written down therein.' (Nietzsche, 'Human, all too human, part 2')

This is truly the raving of a madman.

[foxandpeng]

Nietzsche was a certified loon, to be fair. Empty heart, empty philosophy, empty morals, empty of joy, empty of sanity, and empty of meaning.

Otherwise, pretty good as an example and ideological leader.

👍👍

[Florestan]

Nietzsche was a certified loon, to be fair. Empty heart, empty philosophy, empty morals, empty of joy, empty of sanity, and empty of meaning.

Harsh, only too harsh 

[Florestan]

Nietzsche is a philosopher for (teen)ages --- and so is Cioran, for that matter.

[Henk]

Nietzsche was a certified loon, to be fair. Empty heart, empty philosophy, empty morals, empty of joy, empty of sanity, and empty of meaning.

Otherwise, pretty good as an example and ideological leader.

👍👍

Untrue.

'614.

The Atavist and the Forerunner.—The man of unpleasant character, full of distrust, envious of the success of fellow-competitors and neighbours, violent and enraged at divergent opinions, shows that he belongs to an earlier grade of culture, and is, therefore, an atavism; for the way in which he behaves to people was right and suitable only for an age of club-law; he is an atavist. The man of a different character, rich in sympathy, winning friends everywhere, finding all that is growing and becoming amiable, rejoicing at the honours and successes of others and claiming no privilege of solely knowing the truth, but full of a modest distrust,—he is a forerunner who presses upward towards a higher human culture. The man of unpleasant character dates from the times when the rude basis of human intercourse had yet to be laid, the other lives on the upper floor of the edifice of culture, removed as far as possible from the howling and raging wild beast imprisoned in the cellars.'

'183.
There is a Proper Time for Wrath and Punishment.—Wrath and punishment are our inheritance from the animals. Man does not become of age until he has restored to the animals this gift of the cradle.—Herein lies buried one of the mightiest ideas that men can have, the idea of a progress of all progresses.—Let us go forward together a few millenniums, my friends! There is still reserved for mankind a great deal of joy, the very scent of which has not yet been wafted to the men of our day! Indeed, we may promise ourselves this joy, nay summon and conjure it up as a necessary thing, so long as the development of human reason does not stand still. Some day we shall no longer be reconciled to the logical sin that lurks in all wrath and punishment, whether exercised by the individual or by society—some day, when head and heart have learnt to live as near together as they now are far apart. That they no longer stand so far apart as they did originally is fairly palpable from a glance at the whole course of humanity. The individual who can review a life of introspective work will become conscious of the rapprochement arrived at, with a proud delight at the distance he has bridged, in order that he may thereupon venture upon more ample hopes.'

'75.
Love and Duality.—What else is love but understanding and rejoicing that another lives, works, and feels in a different and opposite way to ourselves? That love may be able to bridge over the contrasts by joys, we must not remove or deny those contrasts. Even self-love presupposes an irreconcileable duality (or plurality) in one person.'

All three texts are from 'Human, all too human'.

I hope this can bring some balance in your judgement of Nietzsche.

[Florestan]

Untrue.

'614.

The Atavist and the Forerunner.—The man of unpleasant character, full of distrust, envious of the success of fellow-competitors and neighbours, violent and enraged at divergent opinions, shows that he belongs to an earlier grade of culture, and is, therefore, an atavism; for the way in which he behaves to people was right and suitable only for an age of club-law; he is an atavist. The man of a different character, rich in sympathy, winning friends everywhere, finding all that is growing and becoming amiable, rejoicing at the honours and successes of others and claiming no privilege of solely knowing the truth, but full of a modest distrust,—he is a forerunner who presses upward towards a higher human culture. The man of unpleasant character dates from the times when the rude basis of human intercourse had yet to be laid, the other lives on the upper floor of the edifice of culture, removed as far as possible from the howling and raging wild beast imprisoned in the cellars.'

'183.
There is a Proper Time for Wrath and Punishment.—Wrath and punishment are our inheritance from the animals. Man does not become of age until he has restored to the animals this gift of the cradle.—Herein lies buried one of the mightiest ideas that men can have, the idea of a progress of all progresses.—Let us go forward together a few millenniums, my friends! There is still reserved for mankind a great deal of joy, the very scent of which has not yet been wafted to the men of our day! Indeed, we may promise ourselves this joy, nay summon and conjure it up as a necessary thing, so long as the development of human reason does not stand still. Some day we shall no longer be reconciled to the logical sin that lurks in all wrath and punishment, whether exercised by the individual or by society—some day, when head and heart have learnt to live as near together as they now are far apart. That they no longer stand so far apart as they did originally is fairly palpable from a glance at the whole course of humanity. The individual who can review a life of introspective work will become conscious of the rapprochement arrived at, with a proud delight at the distance he has bridged, in order that he may thereupon venture upon more ample hopes.'

'75.
Love and Duality.—What else is love but understanding and rejoicing that another lives, works, and feels in a different and opposite way to ourselves? That love may be able to bridge over the contrasts by joys, we must not remove or deny those contrasts. Even self-love presupposes an irreconcileable duality (or plurality) in one person.'

All three texts are from 'Human, all too human'

At one țime, he praises the blonde beast preying upon all his enemies as the supreme type of man.

Then he equally praises the compassionate and merciful man.

Truly the ravings of a madman.

[Henk]

As for Nietzsche 'the madman' I can recommend this text. Nietzsche admitted in Ecce Homo that he was already mad. The incident with the horse was only a culmination and in fact one instance of deviant behavior. He showed affection for the horse. Nietzsche signed Ecce Homo with 'Dionysius against the crucified. The texts demostrates he succeeded in this in his final few years although the text doesn't mention it explicitly.

https://medium.com/@T.C.Williams/the-last-years-of-friedrich-nietzsche-the-horse-incident-and-its-aftermath-97c9559fdcf

[Henk]

At one țime, he praises the blonde beast preying upon all his enemies as the supreme type of man.

Then he equally praises the compassionate and merciful man.

Truly the ravings of a madman.

There is consistency in Nietzsche's work if you care enough, but of course for this you must feel attracted to his writings.

[Henk]

I mean Nietzsche, the further he got from his actual field of specialization, philology, the madder he sounded, but that's philosophy for you - madness.

Nietzsche is sanity for me. Nietzsche brings the proper measure back to humans and society. We should be grateful.

[Florestan]

There is consistency in Nietzsche's work if you care enough, but of course for this you must feel attracted to his writings.

True dat!

Suffice it to say, I'm from Earth and Nietzsche is from Mars.

[Florestan]

Nietzsche is sanity for me. Nietzsche brings the proper measure back to humans and society. We should be grateful.

More power to you.

[foxandpeng]

Untrue.

'614.

The Atavist and the Forerunner.—The man of unpleasant character, full of distrust, envious of the success of fellow-competitors and neighbours, violent and enraged at divergent opinions, shows that he belongs to an earlier grade of culture, and is, therefore, an atavism; for the way in which he behaves to people was right and suitable only for an age of club-law; he is an atavist. The man of a different character, rich in sympathy, winning friends everywhere, finding all that is growing and becoming amiable, rejoicing at the honours and successes of others and claiming no privilege of solely knowing the truth, but full of a modest distrust,—he is a forerunner who presses upward towards a higher human culture. The man of unpleasant character dates from the times when the rude basis of human intercourse had yet to be laid, the other lives on the upper floor of the edifice of culture, removed as far as possible from the howling and raging wild beast imprisoned in the cellars.'

'183.
There is a Proper Time for Wrath and Punishment.—Wrath and punishment are our inheritance from the animals. Man does not become of age until he has restored to the animals this gift of the cradle.—Herein lies buried one of the mightiest ideas that men can have, the idea of a progress of all progresses.—Let us go forward together a few millenniums, my friends! There is still reserved for mankind a great deal of joy, the very scent of which has not yet been wafted to the men of our day! Indeed, we may promise ourselves this joy, nay summon and conjure it up as a necessary thing, so long as the development of human reason does not stand still. Some day we shall no longer be reconciled to the logical sin that lurks in all wrath and punishment, whether exercised by the individual or by society—some day, when head and heart have learnt to live as near together as they now are far apart. That they no longer stand so far apart as they did originally is fairly palpable from a glance at the whole course of humanity. The individual who can review a life of introspective work will become conscious of the rapprochement arrived at, with a proud delight at the distance he has bridged, in order that he may thereupon venture upon more ample hopes.'

'75.
Love and Duality.—What else is love but understanding and rejoicing that another lives, works, and feels in a different and opposite way to ourselves? That love may be able to bridge over the contrasts by joys, we must not remove or deny those contrasts. Even self-love presupposes an irreconcileable duality (or plurality) in one person.'

All three texts are from 'Human, all too human'.

I hope this can bring some balance in your judgement of Nietzsche.

The reality of Nietzsche's experience and the end of his philosophy lie in the fruit it bore in his life.

My reading of Nietzsche over the years and observation of those who have been deeply influenced by him, don't fill me with confidence. Whereas every stopped clock tends to accuracy twice daily, that says little about their trustworthiness.