Return (sort of)

[Madiel]

Agreed on all counts, but when an ordinary citizen says shit in two posts and a group of other ordinary citizens rebuke and ridicule him in two pages and counting, something's amiss.

Yes, I agree with you there. But in my view, that's not because there's some kind of repression a la Communist Romania. Quite the opposite. It's because of a lack of cultural limits, and because the moderators don't say anything.

Honestly, I consider one of the major reasons that forum members take it upon themselves to police something is because they don't see our actual "police" doing it. I've certainly had that feeling from time to time. There have definitely been times that I have said something against a bad post because not only do I think that something ought to be said, but because I think the people who ought to be saying it aren't.

I mean, even if the moderators spoke up and said no, they don't agree that the bad post was bad, that would be meaningful. I can think of one past situation where a moderator gave me the impression that they agreed with me about a post I considered really objectionable... and yet no other action was taken... and it took several days before anybody finally said that actually no, they didn't agree with me that the post was all that bad. When it finally became clear that I didn't have support for my view, I stopped.

I think we get situations where lots of people keep saying that a post is bad, both because that sense of there being no "official" view continues, and also because nobody official steps in and says "okay, enough". Both the mob developing and the mob persisting.

Edit: See, the proposition that I want no moderation couldn't be further from the truth. I want more light touch moderation that's visible, and a lot less of posts being deleted or moved to magically created threads. Even when it comes to the moderators thinking that a thread has gone off-topic, a far more effective thing would be to instruct the people who want that discussion to go and create a thread, themselves.

[ritter]

All very valid points, but the thing is that the objectionability of the initial post (or, rather, of the overall tone that the discussion was taking) that has led to this uproar was pointed out soon after it was posted. Granted, it was not deleted, but it does seem paradoxical that this issue is being discussed so vehemently in a thread started by a valued member who had left the community after a thread post of his had been deleted (in his opinion, wrongly so, but in that of the moderators and many other members, the deletion was justified). So, moderators are berated both when they delete posts, and when they do not.

[Mandryka]

The clothes should go; the cars should remain.  (And point and shoot film cameras are enjoying a minor comeback.)

I like the cars and I like the hat.

You're putting a lot of time into this aren't you @ritter @Dave W !

[Madiel]

All very valid points, but the thing is that the objectionability of the initial post (or, rather, of the overall tone that the discussion was taking) that has led to this uproar was pointed out soon after it was posted. Granted, it was not deleted, but it does seem paradoxical that this issue is being discussed so vehemently in a thread started by a valued member who had left the community after a thread of his had been deleted (in his opinion, wrongly so, but in that of the moderators and many other members, the deletion was justified). So, moderators are berated both when they delete posts, and when they do not.

Cultural change takes time. Keep at it.

Half my point is that we've currently got a culture where only deletion is seen as action. So because you didn't delete the post, you did nothing. That view has kind of been expressed in this thread, and that was part of my starting point earlier today. I personally think the forum will operate a lot better if people stop thinking that moderation consists of deleting things and moving things, and stop expecting to see deletions.

As I've already said, I think that deletion should be quite limited. Advocating pedophilia, yes (that happened only a couple of weeks into my time as moderator, boy was that fun).

[Florestan]

Yes, I agree with you there. But in my view, that's not because there's some kind of repression a la Communist Romania.

Repression can have many form, not only political. There's also societal repression. Mob repression. Group repression. Family repression. What they have in common is the desire for, and enforcement of, uniformity and conformity in thought, speech and action.

But this is a long discussion and this thread is already way too long --- and also long derailed. My contribution to it ends here.

[ritter]

I like the cars and I like the hat.

You're putting a lot of time into this aren't you @ritter @Dave W !

I am sorry, I have stopped understanding much of what is being said over the past few pages of this thread.

If you comment about our time is bona fide, then, well, many thanks!; if it is ironic, then I must inform you that I work for a living, and dedicate as much time to the forum as I can.

As for cars, hats and clothes remaining or going, I do not have the foggiest idea what that is all about. If someone cares to enlighten me, that would be great (and then we can decide whether moderator action is required).

What I can say is that links to porn sites will be removed as soon as they are detected, as I understand happened last night (European).

Best

[Madiel]

Repression can have many form, not only political. There's also societal repression. Mob repression. Group repression. Family repression. What they have in common is the desire for, and enforcement of, uniformity and conformity in thought, speech and action.

Yeah. If you expected Western societies wouldn't have that, you were sorely misinformed.

[Mandryka]

If you comment about our time is bona fide, then, well, many thanks!; if it is ironic, then I must inform you that I work for a living, and dedicate as much time to the forum as I can.

 

I just can see it's taking up a lot of your time, that's all.  This thread.  And the tone is getting tetchy too.

[(poco) Sforzando]

What if I don't want to?

I commend your restraint. But you're missing a heaven-sent opportunity to insult and belittle another member of the forum.

[(poco) Sforzando]

The rules of the site say you must be polite and considerate.

Ah yes, politeness. This forum is overflowing with politeness:

Ah, good old misogyny, the wit of halfwits. (Daverz)

Of course there is.  Your posts about Yuja Wang are openly and blatantly sexist.  Use of the word whore, in any fashion, to describe her is good, old-fashioned sexism.  You have opted to die on a hill named sexism.  That's fine. (Todd)

I feel smothered by all the politeness. Politeness here is evidently a one-way street, to be required of me while others may indulge themselves however they like.

[Madiel]

I commend your restraint. But you're missing a heaven-sent opportunity to insult and belittle another member of the forum.

There are only so many hours in the day.

[Todd]

Ah yes, politeness. This forum is overflowing with politeness:

I feel smothered by all the politeness. Politeness here is evidently a one-way street, to be required of me while others may indulge themselves however they like.

You engaged in writing bordering on the libelous by describing Wang as whorish, and after your blatant sexism was noted, you whine.  Perhaps in your mind your thoughtful, informed, taste-centric posts were polite. 

I encourage you to write thoughtful, informed, and tasteful posts in the future.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I encourage you to write thoughtful, informed, and tasteful posts in the future.

I encourage you to do the same.

[Todd]

I encourage you to do the same.

Thank you.  Mutual encouragement is a sign of civility and culture and wisdom and so forth.

[(poco) Sforzando]

You engaged in writing bordering on the libelous . . . .

As for the above:

There are some people who are in the public spotlight, who must endure the opinions and publications of the public, largely without recourse. Statements made about people such as government officials, political candidates, celebrities, sports players, and authors, are usually exempt from claims defamation, whether the claims are libelous or slanderous. This is true even if the statements, or pictures, are untrue and damaging. If, however, untrue statements are made about such a public person with malice, or with hate and a desire to cause harm with no regard for the truth, the public person may have a right to bring a civil lawsuit.

https://legaldictionary.net/libel/#ftoc-heading-5

If Ms. Wang wishes to bring an action against me, I will be sure to lawyer up.

[Todd]

If Ms. Wang wishes to bring an action against me, I will be sure to lawyer up.

There is no doubt that Ms Wang will not take legal action against you as your posts about her are objectively irrelevant, just as there is no doubt that you think your posts about her have substance.

[AnotherSpin]

Based on the concept of the life cycle of a system, the stage of mutual accusations marks the end of the phase of rigidity and loss of flexibility. Then comes a period of senility, followed by death.

[ritter]

It seems to me that this conversation has run its course, and has degenerated into an exercise of finger-pointing, whataboutery, and ad hominem arguments (a pity, as there was momentarily hope for "civility and culture and wisdom"  ). I will lock the thread temporarily.

[DavidW]

I was not in favor of Poco's post, but I am in favor of AS's nuanced take on the matter, and I'm not in favor of Poco being harrassed for pages.

I think that Spotted Horses first brought it up, not because he wanted to form a lynch mob after Poco, but because he wanted to highlight what he considered unfair treatment from us, the moderating team. As far as that goes, some posts are on-topic, and some are using every excuse to flog Poco.

The criticisms and frustration about how we handle things and problematic issues with the forum policy have been brought to our attention. We are discussing them. And I thank you for sharing your concerns, and I'm especially glad to see that instead of posters quietly leaving.

But I think all relevant points have been made, and any further discussion will not be fruitful. There has already been lewd content on this thread, and there has been too much harassing of Poco.

To reiterate where we started, I do hope that Spotted Horses stays.