Are there orchestras today better than Toscanini's NBC Symphony Orchestra?

[MISHUGINA]

Hi. Me and hautbois were discussing one topic and I felt the NBC Symphony Orchestra under Arturo Toscanini to be such a technically proficient orchestra with unusual standards that probably cannot be matched by any ensemble today. But there may be some experienced listeners out there who could say I'm wrong. I thought the orchestra flourished because of presence of a very demanding and tyrannical podium master which is impossible for today's music climate. What do you think?

[Iago]

Toscaninis NBC Symphony went out of business about two years after the Maestro retired. They lingered for a while as the "Symphony of the Air"
Although I never saw Toscanini himself, conduct, I did attend two concerts of the "Symphony of the Air" in Carnegie Hall in 1955 or 1956.
One was with NO CONDUCTOR at all (an honorarium to Toscanini) and one under Josef Krips.

Program for Conductorless concert;
Prokofiev- Classical Symphony
Tschaikovsky- Nutcracker Suite
Berlioz - Roman Carnival Overture
Dvorak - New World Symphony

Krips program
Mozart-Sym #41
R. Strauss- Don Juan
R. Strauss- "Till Eulenspiegel"

It's now more than 50 years later. And the sound of those two concerts lingers in my memory. In the ensuing 50 years, I must have attended between 900 to 1000 concerts. And to this day, I have never heard a finer sounding, technically precise, charismatic orchestra.

[MishaK]

Hi. Me and hautbois were discussing one topic and I felt the NBC Symphony Orchestra under Arturo Toscanini to be such a technically proficient orchestra with unusual standards that probably cannot be matched by any ensemble today. But there may be some experienced listeners out there who could say I'm wrong. I thought the orchestra flourished because of presence of a very demanding and tyrannical podium master which is impossible for today's music climate. What do you think?

I would indeed disagree that the NBC cannot be matched technically by any orchestras today. I would say that any of the Big 5 US orchestras and certainly the more versatile top European possess the same ability for technical precision as the NBC did in its heyday, if not better. Just listen to any of Boulez's efforts with the CSO, Cleveland or Berlin. You'll get the same knife-edge precision, but greater clarity and more color. But I would not idealize the NBC sound at all. This obsession of Toscanini's with precision often came at the cost of warmth and color, which most conductors and musicians today recognize do not need to exclude each other. (There are exceptions of course: Toscanini's Brahms cycle for instance is absolutely superlative interpretively and shows that the NBC and Toscanini were able of a great deal of depth of color and variety of sonority.) The prolific recorded output of Toscanini and the NBC certainly did its share to raise awareness of just how sloppy ensemble standards had often been in the past. So he certainly deserves a fair deal of credit for the fact that the technical abilities of ensembles today are generally greater than in the past. But consider that Toscanini was one who did not vary tempos very widely. He did have a very subtle rubato, but the main pulse was generally fairly constant. Apart from taking some pieces at near breakneck speed, it was not too difficult to follow Toscanini, so precision was an achievable goal. I am actually far more impressed with the ensemble coordination of the Concertgebouw through the years. Try to get a hold of some old recordings or video footage of Mengelberg from the 30s and 40s - so an equivalent time as the heyday of the Toscanini-NBC relationship. How that orchestra follows the maniacal tempo changes of Mengelberg is astounding. I do wonder how the NBC would have fared with that conductor.

But even so, Toscanini's heritage didn't disappear. It lived on in the Szell/Cleveland and Reiner/CSO as well as Solti/CSO relationships, all three of which were artistic heirs of Toscanini. And not just that, many musicians ended up in those orchestras. Frank Miller, principal cello of the NBC joined the CSO after the NBC disbanded and had a prfound impact on its ensemble playing until his retirement in the 80s.

[david johnson]

the nbc is not overated, but we must view (listen) to it within the context of its times and mission.

dj

[Drasko]

Don't know if it is over or underrated, but I seem to recall reading that there were serious considerations for orchestra to continue to exist, Igor Markevitch was supposed to take MD position (and he recorded with them very nice Eroica and excellent Brahms' 1st for DG). Don't know what went wrong but in the end NBC just disbanded the orchestra, pity.

[MishaK]

Igor Markevitch was supposed to take MD position (and he recorded with them very nice Eroica and excellent Brahms' 1st for DG).

Really? Are these still available somewhere?

[Drasko]

Really? Are these still available somewhere?

Yup

http://www.amazon.com/Igor-Markevitch-Raymond-Droulez/dp/B00009LW31

Eroica is also availabe separately, Brahms isn't

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=UCCG-4205

http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1269882

[MishaK]

Yup

http://www.amazon.com/Igor-Markevitch-Raymond-Droulez/dp/B00009LW31

Eroica is also availabe separately, Brahms isn't

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=UCCG-4205

http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1269882

Thanks! Looks like amazon is having trouble assigning orchestras to the right tracks. Some are allegedly performed by two bands at once.

[jochanaan]

Did the NBC Symphony ever record The Rite of Spring? If not, I seriously doubt they could be considered as technically proficient as any of the major orchestras that have recorded that score within the last forty years.  It's much easier to get real precision in Beethoven or even Brahms than in Stravinsky or Schoenberg...

And I would disagree that the NBC Symphony was the be-all and end-all orchestra even in its heyday.  After all, that was also when Stokowski and Ormandy led the Philadelphia Orchestra, which was as technically proficient as the NBC and had the most magnificent tone too.  (There are a few recordings of Toscanini leading the Philadelphia.  Ah, bliss! )  Roger Scott, former bass section leader in the PO, says simply, "You don't make mistakes in Philadelphia."  (from Orchestra, edited by Andre Previn.  Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Co. Inc., 1979)

[Iago]

Toscanini was not known to be a Stravinsky enthusiast. In fact I would guess that he performed very little Stravinsky (if any) and NEVER performed the "Rite of Spring". Since the orchestra was created especially for him, it's no wonder they never performed it.
In the early years of the NBC, Monteux conducted them quite frequently, as did Reiner, Steinberg, Stokowski and Rodzinski.
Monteux certainly could have conducted it, but for some reason chose not to.
But I heard the NBC "live" on more than one occasion. It was a treat. And they were very, very, good.

[Mark G. Simon]

I think the Met Orchestra under Levine is unbeatable by any orchestra past or present.

[MishaK]

I think the Met Orchestra under Levine is unbeatable by any orchestra past or present.

You'd have to explain your standards for making such evaluations. Unbeatable in what sense? If it's the best, why did the Met's principal oboe leave last year to join the CSO?

[Holden]

The premise of this thread must could also be true for the following ensemble/conductor combinations:

Reiner/Chicago
Walter/Columbia SO
Stokowski/Philadelphia
Ancerl/Czech PO (or Talich)

and most pertinently - Furtwangler/BPO. Surely this would have to be the peer of the NBC or even better.

[MishaK]

The premise of this thread must could also be true for the following ensemble/conductor combinations:

Reiner/Chicago
Walter/Columbia SO
Stokowski/Philadelphia
Ancerl/Czech PO (or Talich)

and most pertinently - Furtwangler/BPO. Surely this would have to be the peer of the NBC or even better.

Again, one would have to ask what it is you're measuring. The BPO under Furtwängler certainly was a great orchestra, but it did not have the ensemble precision of Reiner/CSO or Toscanini/NBC. But that wasn't what the conductor was after, in any case. This isn't a contest measuring a single variable. You can't just declare one of these "better" than the others. Also, I think there is some romantization of the mono sound going on here. If you listen carefully, the playing of these orchestras of yesteryear doesn't always stack up very well to many of today's ensembles, especially as regards their verssatility in a variety of repertoire.

[Wendell_E]

If it's the best, why did the Met's principal oboe leave last year to join the CSO?

One Bohème too many? 

[MishaK]

Again, one would have to ask what it is you're measuring. The BPO under Furtwängler certainly was a great orchestra, but it did not have the ensemble precision of Reiner/CSO or Toscanini/NBC. But that wasn't what the conductor was after, in any case. This isn't a contest measuring a single variable. You can't just declare one of these "better" than the others. Also, I think there is some romantization of the mono sound going on here. If you listen carefully, the playing of these orchestras of yesteryear doesn't always stack up very well to many of today's ensembles, especially as regards their tone and versatility in a variety of repertoire.

[max]

I get nightmares thinking of Toscanini conducting Bruckner...or Mahler! Imagine the consequences of imposing non-varying tempos and absolute precision on any of their works.

[Holden]

Again, one would have to ask what it is you're measuring. The BPO under Furtwängler certainly was a great orchestra, but it did not have the ensemble precision of Reiner/CSO or Toscanini/NBC. But that wasn't what the conductor was after, in any case. This isn't a contest measuring a single variable. You can't just declare one of these "better" than the others. Also, I think there is some romantization of the mono sound going on here. If you listen carefully, the playing of these orchestras of yesteryear doesn't always stack up very well to many of today's ensembles, especially as regards their verssatility in a variety of repertoire.

The reason for the WF/BPO recommendation was based on a doco I saw in which it was stated that many orchestras that had Furtwangler conduct them initially had problems trying to interpret his beat. This was never the case with the BPO and for that reason this was a great ensemble perfectly in synch with their conductor a la Toscanini/NBCSO. We're not talking metronomic precision here but a precision based on mutual understanding.

[Mark G. Simon]

You'd have to explain your standards for making such evaluations. Unbeatable in what sense? If it's the best, why did the Met's principal oboe leave last year to join the CSO?

Maybe he didn't like the long hours. Playing in an opera orchestra, especially one that specializes in Wagner and other heavy-hitters, is much more physically taxing than a symphony orchestra.

Similarly, the fabulous clarinetist Ricardo Morales left the Met orchestra to play first with the Philadelphia Orchestra.