Suspended 7th chord

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

I think I hear 7sus, or a pedal note for a similar effect, in JS Bach sometimes. I imagine somebody utilized it even before Bach. Any composers before JSB I should check?

Is it a Renaissance thing? I don't think Arabic music had it, but I'm not sure.

[DaveF]

I think it's a very Handel thing, the immovable 7th in the bass - I'm no expert on his music, but I'm thinking of "And the Lord hath laid on him" in Messiah. Such tricks were probably too extreme for earlier composers - in the late Renaissance, they were only just discovering the joys of the dominant 7th.

[Harry]

I think it's a very Handel thing, the immovable 7th in the bass - I'm no expert on his music, but I'm thinking of "And the Lord hath laid on him" in Messiah. Such tricks were probably too extreme for earlier composers - in the late Renaissance, they were only just discovering the joys of the dominant 7th.

Correct.

[relm1]

I know this is off topic but tracing contemporary techniques is quite interesting.  For example, I was surprised to hear clusters and discord in Heinrich Biber's Battalia from 1673.

Second movement at 1:40 for example, I couldn't find how to link directly to it.

[DaveF]

I'm finding it quite difficult to research this topic, since internet searches (at least with the engines I use) invariably return references to simple dominant 7ths, rather than suspended ones.  I am pleased, however, to be able (almost certainly) to disagree with the oft-quoted remark that the first use of the unprepared dominant 7th was by Monteverdi in Cruda Amarilli (5th book, 1605) - Byrd uses it in the Great Service - date not precisely known, but probably late 1580s.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

I'm finding it quite difficult to research this topic, since internet searches (at least with the engines I use) invariably return references to simple dominant 7ths, rather than suspended ones.  I am pleased, however, to be able (almost certainly) to disagree with the oft-quoted remark that the first use of the unprepared dominant 7th was by Monteverdi in Cruda Amarilli (5th book, 1605) - Byrd uses it in the Great Service - date not precisely known, but probably late 1580s.

Thank you! Probably 7-11 is a relatively new concept. I imagine IV maj7 with a note of V (ie. Fmaj7/G) was used frequently.

[Szykneij]

A somewhat related question to those of you much more knowledgeable than me. It's been a long time since I had to analyze Bach cantatas and my experience with pre-Baroque theory is limited. Did Renaissance and earlier composers actually think in terms of suspended 7ths, major 9ths, etc. or did these intervals occur primarily as the result of contrapuntal lines? Were there rules as to what was unacceptable, such as no tritones or parallel 5ths in the Baroque (except if you were Bach, and then it was OK.)

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

A somewhat related question to those of you much more knowledgeable than me. It's been a long time since I had to analyze Bach cantatas and my experience with pre-Baroque theory is limited. Did Renaissance and earlier composers actually think in terms of suspended 7ths, major 9ths, etc. or did these intervals occur primarily as the result of contrapuntal lines? Were there rules as to what was unacceptable, such as no tritones or parallel 5ths in the Baroque (except if you were Bach, and then it was OK.)

I don't hear an effective sound/harmony of major or minor 7th/9th in Renaissance music. But they may be present in melodies and arpeggios. Again I think I hear IVmaj7/V more than 7sus.