Can music, poetry and art be true?

[Florestan]

Here we go round the prickly pear
    Prickly pear prickly pear
    Here we go round the prickly pear
    At five o'clock in the morning.
 
    Between the idea
    And the reality
    Between the motion
    And the act
    Falls the Shadow
                                    For Thine is the Kingdom
 
    Between the conception
    And the creation
    Between the emotion
    And the response
    Falls the Shadow
                                    Life is very long
 
    Between the desire
    And the spasm
    Between the potency
    And the existence
    Between the essence
    And the descent
    Falls the Shadow
                                    For Thine is the Kingdom
 
    For Thine is
    Life is
    For Thine is the
 
    This is the way the world ends
    This is the way the world ends
    This is the way the world ends
    Not with a bang but a whimper.


Eliot's Hollow Men. I wonder if anyone would care to argue that there's something true here which only poetry can express.

To me it sound like the last, rambling, incoherent thoughts before falling asleep (at five o'clock in the morning) of someone who's been drinking-cum-philosophizing (going round the prickly pear) all night long. 

[Florestan]

I'm not sure what an exact science is.

Physics, mathematics and chemistry are certainly more "exact" than psychology.

[Spotted Horses]

Physics, mathematics and chemistry are certainly more "exact" than psychology.

Physics can't predict the motion of this thing.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=178801113066842

[Florestan]

Physics can't predict the motion of this thing.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=178801113066842

It can accurately predict, though, that the motion will eventually cease --- which is more than psychology can predict about the behavior of a mentally deranged person. 

[Spotted Horses]

It can accurately predict, though, that the motion will eventually cease. 

It can't, except in a statistical sense. The system is unstable. Dynamical equations can predict the motion for a very short time interval, but even infinitesimal uncertainties in the initial condition will grow rapidly in time. If the starting point is changed by just a micron the trajectory will be entirely different after a few moments.

[Mandryka]

To me it sound like the last, rambling, incoherent thoughts before falling asleep (at five o'clock in the morning) of someone who's been drinking-cum-philosophizing (going round the prickly pear) all night long. 

Here's something a bit simpler maybe -- @ritter may be able to explain this one


Ses purs ongles très-haut dédiant leur onyx,
L'Angoisse, ce minuit, soutient, lampadophore,
Maint rêve vespéral brûlé par le Phénix
Que ne recueille pas de cinéraire amphore

Sur les crédences, au salon vide : nul ptyx,
Aboli bibelot d'inanité sonore,
(Car le Maître est allé puiser des pleurs au Styx
Avec ce seul objet dont le Néant s'honore.)

Mais proche la croisée au nord vacante, un or
Agonise selon peut-être le décor
Des licornes ruant du feu contre une nixe,

Elle, défunte nue en le miroir, encor
Que, dans l'oubli fermé par le cadre, se fixe
De scintillations sitôt le septuor.

[Spotted Horses]

Here we go round the prickly pear
    Prickly pear prickly pear
    Here we go round the prickly pear
    At five o'clock in the morning.
 
    Between the idea
    And the reality
    Between the motion
    And the act
    Falls the Shadow
                                    For Thine is the Kingdom
 
    Between the conception
    And the creation
    Between the emotion
    And the response
    Falls the Shadow
                                    Life is very long
 
    Between the desire
    And the spasm
    Between the potency
    And the existence
    Between the essence
    And the descent
    Falls the Shadow
                                    For Thine is the Kingdom
 
    For Thine is
    Life is
    For Thine is the
 
    This is the way the world ends
    This is the way the world ends
    This is the way the world ends
    Not with a bang but a whimper.


Eliot's Hollow Men. I wonder if anyone would care to argue that there's something true here which only poetry can express.

It paint's Eliots feelings in response to life experience. Someone could write a psychological profile which would convey the same content, in a less satisfying way.

[Mandryka]

It paint's Eliots feelings in response to life experience. Someone could write a psychological profile which would convey the same content, in a less satisfying way.

I suppose one question is whether the rhythm brings anything to the content which could not be brought in another way.

[Cato]

It can't, except in a statistical sense. The system is unstable. Dynamical equations can predict the motion for a very short time interval, but even infinitesimal uncertainties in the initial condition will grow rapidly in time. If the starting point is changed by just a micron the trajectory will be entirely different after a few moments.

It can accurately predict, though, that the motion will eventually cease --- which is more than psychology can predict about the behavior of a mentally deranged person. 

A physicist and psychologist (!) named Danah Zohar created a re-interpretation of psychology from the standpoint of Quantum Physics: she suspected 30 years ago, along with others, that consciousness is the result of quantum effects in the brain's synapses.

See her book The Quantum Self.

A recent news item showed that a tiny speck of brain matter, "half the size of a grain of rice," contains "thousands of terabytes."

A terabyte is over a trillion gigabytes: "thousands of terabytes" will in fact take you into Petabyte land, with quadrillions of bytes involved. 

No man-made computer can yet come close to such complexity.  Hence, a self-aware computer will seem to remain science fiction.

Predicting human behavior outside of generalizations...seems therefore unlikely.

That we can ask ourselves "Is there Truth in Music?" shows how amazing the human brain is, along with creating Music or Art or any kind of creative writing!

[Spotted Horses]

I suppose one question is whether the rhythm brings anything to the content which could not be brought in another way.

It brings pleasure to the reader, and it could reflected in the psychological profile. "The subject's tendency to employ repetition and sing-song rhythms suggests a level of cynicism and resignation. The subject may exhibit mild depressive disorder and should be sent to a Taylor Swift concert.

[Florestan]

It can't, except in a statistical sense. The system is unstable. Dynamical equations can predict the motion for a very short time interval, but even infinitesimal uncertainties in the initial condition will grow rapidly in time. If the starting point is changed by just a micron the trajectory will be entirely different after a few moments.

No matter what the starting point is, the initial impulse will eventually exhaust itself, the motion will eventually stop and the double pendulum will eventually reach a state of complete stillness. This is an accurate prediction which implies no calculations whatsoever. There is no perpetuum mobile.

[Florestan]

Here's something a bit simpler maybe -- @ritter may be able to explain this one


Ses purs ongles très-haut dédiant leur onyx,
L'Angoisse, ce minuit, soutient, lampadophore,
Maint rêve vespéral brûlé par le Phénix
Que ne recueille pas de cinéraire amphore

Sur les crédences, au salon vide : nul ptyx,
Aboli bibelot d'inanité sonore,
(Car le Maître est allé puiser des pleurs au Styx
Avec ce seul objet dont le Néant s'honore.)

Mais proche la croisée au nord vacante, un or
Agonise selon peut-être le décor
Des licornes ruant du feu contre une nixe,

Elle, défunte nue en le miroir, encor
Que, dans l'oubli fermé par le cadre, se fixe
De scintillations sitôt le septuor.

Intellectual play with words, rhymes and rhythm which expresses nothing except itself.

[Spotted Horses]

No matter what the starting point is, the initial impulse will eventually exhaust itself, the motion will eventually stop and the double pendulum will eventually reach a state of complete stillness. This is an accurate prediction which implies no calculations whatsoever. There is no perpetuum mobile.

Well yes, within the model of classical dynamics. In reality thermally driven motion and quantum mechanical uncertainty will remain, resulting in random dynamics. Now we are reaching the level of absurdity.

Nothing is known with absolute certainty. I can't even be certain that if I go to the listening thread Linz will be listening to Bruckner.

[Florestan]

I can't even be certain that if I go to the listening thread Linz will be listening to Bruckner.

 

[Florestan]

Well yes, within the model of classical dynamics. In reality thermally driven motion and quantum mechanical uncertainty will remain, resulting in random dynamics.

Do you imply that there is the slightest possibility that the motion will go on indefinitely, like forever?

[Spotted Horses]

Do you imply that there is the slightest possibility that the motion will go on indefinitely, like forever?

If the temperature is not absolute zero (0 Kelvin, -273.15 C) thermal motion will continue. It will be infinitesimally small, of course. And from a quantum mechanical point of view there is no zero-energy state.

[AnotherSpin]

Well yes, within the model of classical dynamics. In reality thermally driven motion and quantum mechanical uncertainty will remain, resulting in random dynamics. Now we are reaching the level of absurdity.

Nothing is known with absolute certainty. I can't even be certain that if I go to the listening thread Linz will be listening to Bruckner.

Yes, no-thing could be known with absolute certainty. However, you can know with absolute certainty that you are, it stands beyond doubt. This is undeniably true.

[ritter]

Here's something a bit simpler maybe -- @ritter may be able to explain this one


Ses purs ongles très-haut dédiant leur onyx,
L'Angoisse, ce minuit, soutient, lampadophore,
Maint rêve vespéral brûlé par le Phénix
Que ne recueille pas de cinéraire amphore

Sur les crédences, au salon vide : nul ptyx,
Aboli bibelot d'inanité sonore,
(Car le Maître est allé puiser des pleurs au Styx
Avec ce seul objet dont le Néant s'honore.)

Mais proche la croisée au nord vacante, un or
Agonise selon peut-être le décor
Des licornes ruant du feu contre une nixe,

Elle, défunte nue en le miroir, encor
Que, dans l'oubli fermé par le cadre, se fixe
De scintillations sitôt le septuor.

ritter can unfortunately not explain this one. He can admire it, though... 

[ChamberNut]

Nothing is known with absolute certainty. I can't even be certain that if I go to the listening thread Linz will be listening to Bruckner.

It's a near certainty. I went and checked the listening thread immediately afterwards and it WAS the first thing I saw. 

[Spotted Horses]

It's a near certainty. I went and checked the listening thread immediately afterwards and it WAS the first thing I saw. 

Quantum tunneling might cause him to penetrate the walls of his Bruckner silo and listen to Rossini!