Topic: Haydn's Masses

[Franco]

I first came to hear of the Naxos set from an article in The New York Times  about the firing of the long time director, Owen Burdock.  They barred him from completing the Haydn cycle he had beeen doing for years, so the last few masses may suffer as a result.

I plan on buying it.

[Antoine Marchand]

I first came to hear of the Naxos set from an article in The New York Times  about the firing of the long time director, Owen Burdock.  They barred him from completing the Haydn cycle he had beeen doing for years, so the last few masses may suffer as a result.

I plan on buying it.

Interesting link, Franco: A kind of "classical" E! True Hollywood Story.

The next paragraph called my attention: "Ms. Covo said that while she stood behind the recordings’ high quality, the presence of two conductors “has already marginalized” them and broken the musical continuity. Mr. Burdick, for example, chose to use an Italianate pronunciation of the Latin texts; Ms. Glover opted for a Germanic pronunciation”.

I have yet not heard the works conducted by Jane Glover, but I have noticed that in all CDs conducted by Burdick the soloists and chorus sing “Kyrie Eleeson” and not “Kyrie Eleison” -as is usual-, which is a little bit disconcerting.

 
 

[Lilas Pastia]

Latin pronunciation is sometimes a stumbling block. I don't like the germanic way, because that's not how I learned it at school or hear when it's sung by local choirs. But I have to assume it's what the composers heard and had in mind. Is it really so important that a unified way be chosen for the Haydn Masses, I have no idea - after all, we listen to them ont at a time, non?.

The most peculiar pronunciation I've heard is the old french one. That used in many composers' Grands Motets for example (17th-18th century). THAT takes a lot getting used to. I've never heard it used in classical or romantic music (Berlioz Requiem or Te Deum for example, or Gounod's St-Cecilia Mass). Not even from french forces of the 50s. I assume it's a relic. I wonder what basis HIP pracitioners have to figure how it was done back then?

[Elgarian]

I bought one of the Naxos boxes a few days ago and although so far I've listened only to the last two CDs in the set (I decided to work through backwards), already the purchase has justified itself in terms of delight/price ratio. I don't care about any discrepancies I may discover in the pronunciation of 'Eleison', but I do very much like the fresh and vivid musicality of what I've been hearing. I'd like also to put in a good word for the presentation. At £25 for 8 CDs I'd have forgiven a bit of scrimping on the packaging, but the box is solid and attractive, the discs are in attractive card slipcases, and there's a good-looking informative booklet included.

[Leo K.]

Merry Christmas to all! 

Today I have finished this superb set:

Haydn – Missen (compleet)
Tölzer Knabenchor
Tafelmusik
Bruno Weil
Recording: 1992-1996
Producer: Wolf Erichson
5 CD box
Brilliant Classics
All tracks licensed from Sony Music Benelux 

This Bruno Weil set is the most idiomatic sacred Haydn that I have heard ever. It conveys all that feeling of intimacy and self-confidence that I always want to be embodied in Haydn… I stress this point because my principal quibble about Hickox is certain “monumental” approach - a kind of “massivity”- that, finally, it is detrimental to his performances.

However, one point called my attention. This 5-CD set is presented by Brilliant under the title “Haydn / Missen (compleet)”, but it is far to be complete because it only includes the six late masses (Hob. XXII:9-14), composed between 1796-1802, and two earlier masses (Hob. XXII: 2 & 7). In short, six masses are missed here, but included in the Hickox’s complete mass edition. Additionaly, this year Sony reissued (4-CD set) the six late masses, not including the Missa "Sunt bona mixta malis", Hob XXII:2, the Missa brevis Sancti Joannis de Deo, Hob. XXII:7 ("Little Organ Mass") and the remaining pieces included in the CD5 of the Brilliant set.

Just to clarify this point -the information on internet is a little bit elusive about it- I have copied the works included in the Brilliant set (including a lot of wonderful "no-masses" sacred works):

CD1
- Missa, Hob. XXII:12
“Theresa Mass” Theresienmesse in B-flat major

- Missa in angustiis, Hob. XXII:11
“Nelson Mass” Nelsonmesse in D minor

CD2
- Missa in tempore belli Hob. XXII:9
Paukemesse “Mass in Time of War” for soloists, Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ

- Salve Regina, Hob. XXIIIb:2 for soloists, strings and concerted organ

- Motetto “O Coelitum beati”, Hob. XXIIIa: G9 for soloists, Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ

CD3
- Missa Nr. 11 “Schöpfungsmesse”
Hob. XXII:13 (1801) für Soli, Chor und Orchester

- Missa Nr. 12 “Harmoniemesse”
Hob. XXII:14 (1802) für Soli, Chor und Orchester

CD4
- Missa Sancti Bernardi de Offida, Hob. XXII:10
“Heiligmesse” for soloists, Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ

- Mare Clausum, Hob. XXIVa:9 (Fragment)
For Bass, Five-Part Chorus and Orchestra

- Motetto “Insanae et vanae curae”, Hob. XXI:13c for Four-Part Chorus and Orchestra

- Motetti de Venerabili Sacramento, Hob. XXIIIc:5 a-d for soloists, Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ

- Te Deum for the Empress Marie Therese, Hob. XXIIIc:2 for Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ

CD5
- Missa "Sunt bona mixta malis", Hob XXII:2 (Fragment/Frammento) for Chorus and Basso continuo

- Offertorium "Non nobis, Domine", Hob. XXIIIa:1 for Chorus and Basso continuo

- Ave Regina, Hob XXIIIb:3 for Solo Soprano, Chorus, Strings and Basso continuo

- Responsoria de Venerabili, Hob. XXIIIc:4a-d for Chorus, Strings, Two Horns and Basso continuo

- Responsorium ad absolutionem "Libera me", Hob XXIIb:1 for Chorus, Strings and Basso continuo

- Salve Regina, Hob. XXIIIb:1 for Solo Soprano, Chorus, Strings and Basso continuo

- Missa brevis Sancti Joannis de Deo, Hob. XXII:7 ("Little Organ Mass") for Chorus, Strings and Basso continuo


 

I'm starting my Xmas Eve with some late masses of Haydn, and for the first time I listening to the Bruno Weil, based on the thoughts I have read on this board.

I am on my third listen to the Theresienmesse, and it seems I can't get farther because this performance is just SO GOOD. I'm loving the more intimate sound! This is the set I've been looking for!

 

[Opus106]

One more CD than the Brilliant set. (Or maybe it's just the 4CD + 2 CDs' worth of Creation. Still missing that one CD from Brilliant? Antoine 'Eric' Shumway has notes in the previous page.)

[OrchestralNut]

I bought one of the Naxos boxes a few days ago and although so far I've listened only to the last two CDs in the set (I decided to work through backwards), already the purchase has justified itself in terms of delight/price ratio. I don't care about any discrepancies I may discover in the pronunciation of 'Eleison', but I do very much like the fresh and vivid musicality of what I've been hearing. I'd like also to put in a good word for the presentation. At £25 for 8 CDs I'd have forgiven a bit of scrimping on the packaging, but the box is solid and attractive, the discs are in attractive card slipcases, and there's a good-looking informative booklet included.

Hmmm......I may have to add this one to the wish list.  I thoroughly enjoyed the similarly packaged Naxos box set of Haydn's complete string quartets (Kodaly Qt.)  Terrific, attractive box set with a huge booklet!    Oh, and the music just happens to be top notch as well!! 

[k a rl h e nn i ng]

One more CD than the Brilliant set. (Or maybe it's just the 4CD + 2 CDs' worth of Creation. Still missing that one CD from Brilliant? Antoine 'Eric' Shumway has notes in the previous page.)

Lovely, Nav!

[Gurn Blanston]

One more CD than the Brilliant set. (Or maybe it's just the 4CD + 2 CDs' worth of Creation. Still missing that one CD from Brilliant? Antoine 'Eric' Shumway has notes in the previous page.)

Yes, that will be the 4 disks with the last 6 Great Masses and the 2 disks of The Creation. The earlier masses that Brilliant leased from Sony to issue in the Benelux countries have still not been made available elsewhere, AFAIK. 

[Wakefield]

Yes, that will be the 4 disks with the last 6 Great Masses and the 2 disks of The Creation. The earlier masses that Brilliant leased from Sony to issue in the Benelux countries have still not been made available elsewhere, AFAIK. 

Currently, it's available at JPC, Gurnatron.

EUR 7,99 is the asking price.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-1732-1809-Messen-Nr-27910-14/hnum/4558963

[StLukesguildOhio]

Haydn's masses have long been among my favorite works by the composer, nevertheless I have yet to set about picking up any complete set, but rather went about collecting piecemeal:













I ended up picking up a slew of individual Hickox discs... seduced (as a huge William Blake fan) by the covers:

[André]

I've been on a Paukenmesse binge lately. IMHO it's one of Haydn's greatest works in the genre, along with the Nelsonmesse - and one of his best works tout court.

I have heard many different versions over the years. Last month I purchased the Harnoncourt Concentus Musicus Wien on Teldec. Their Nelson Mass is wonderful. Alas, this Paukenmesse is a travesty. I have no idea what may have possessed Harnoncourt to imagine suct an emasculated, tired and prissy account of that, one of Haydn's biggest and boldest choral works. 4/10

For a comparison I went to Gardiner's version. Immediately one feels more spring in the rythms, more verve in the playing. And also the trademark Gardiner defects: rythmic rigidity (it's all yippity yap, with little relaxation), explosive trumpets-and-drum bursts that sound like so many loud high-pitched farts. The orchestral balances are good otherwise, and the singing very assured (but not warm by any stretch of the imagination). 7/10

Then, on to the Staatskapelle Dresden under Marriner on EMI. Now, that is something ! Every attribute of Haydn's music is there, in spades: warmth, depth and emotion allied to sprightliness and wit. Of course this is a totally different sound picture: it's big, reverberant, with beautifully articulated strings (in suitably large number), assertive drums and brass. And that cello solo in the Qui tollis is to die for: inky, 85% cocoa dark chocolate, warm and hugely expressive. Excellent soloists. The chorus could have been more clearly miked, but that reminds one that this could have come from a church acoustic. Wonderful ! 9/10.

Hickox's version on Chandos has lots going for it, especially in terms of sound: big, resonant and clear. The cello solo is aristocratically played, really beautiful. Solo voices are splendid. The one thing that started to make me think twice is the meager string sound. They don't sound like they were more than 8-10 strong, if that. As the work progresses, this becomes an irritation. Definitely a miscalculation. 7/10

Bruno Weil's version on Sony has pretty much the same qualities and defects as the Hickox. Here I think that the strings are a mere quartet. That simply won't do. It's totally wrong to play late Haydn with such a meagre string complement. Other than that, Weil and his forces never put a foot wrong and do quite well. 6/10.

Coming up next: Bernstein's first version, on Sony. If I can put my hands on it, the Kubelik will follow. I used to have it on cassette. IIRC it's a wonderfully grand interpretation.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

For a comparison I went to Gardiner's version. Immediately one feels more spring in the rythms, more verve in the playing. And also the trademark Gardiner defects: rythmic rigidity (it's all yippity yap, with little relaxation), explosive trumpets-and-drum bursts that sound like so many loud high-pitched farts. The orchestral balances are good otherwise, and the singing very assured (but not warm by any stretch of the imagination). 7/10

Hickox's version on Chandos has lots going for it, especially in terms of sound: big, resonant and clear. The cello solo is aristocratically played, really beautiful. Solo voices are splendid. The one thing that started to make me think twice is the meager string sound. They don't sound like they were more than 8-10 strong, if that. As the work progresses, this becomes an irritation. Definitely a miscalculation. 7/10

I agree with your Hickox rating - his recordings of all of Haydn's masses are truly beautiful. However, I don't agree that Gardiner has "defects". I hear solid, dedicated performances enlighten to the spiritual aspects of the music to a greater degree than Hickox, even (gorgeous though he is).

[KevinP]

I have this set, which I haven't seen pictured in this thread , though there are some broken links.

Not a huge fan of his masses, nor, to be honest, of Haydn himself (don't hate him, just don't reach for his CDs very often), so this is enough for me.

[Gurn Blanston]

I have this set, which I haven't seen pictured in this thread , though there are some broken links.

Not a huge fan of his masses, nor, to be honest, of Haydn himself (don't hate him, just don't reach for his CDs very often), so this is enough for me.

The singing is excellent on that set. Playing too, for that matter.

[André]

Bernstein's Haydn is among the best. The stark, almost terrifying account of thePaukenmesse though is sabotaged by the raucous, swampy, echoey sound (in Washington Cathedral). I wonder if something dire was going on in Washington at the time (January 1973) ? Bernstein truly sounds angry.

Curiously, the orchestra remains unnamed in all the sources I checked. And what was Bernstein doing in Washington at the time ? This seems like a one off, not really intended to be part of a collection of choral Haydn works. In any case, it's certainly one of the better interpretations, the only one that I know that takes the "war" element that far afield.

Kubelik is on its way  .

[kishnevi]

I had presumed the NYPO was the orchestra. That at least is the inference from the back cover: the only mass not with the NYPO was the Theresienmese.

[André]

That's not the case. The booklet notes state the recordings details (players, date, venue) for all the performances. The New York Phil is specified for all of them, except the Theresienmesse (LSO) and the Paukenmesse, where the laconic info is "orchestra conducted by Leonard Bernstein". They are also the only performances recorded outside of New York.

[kishnevi]

That's not the case. The booklet notes state the recordings details (players, date, venue) for all the performances. The New York Phil is specified for all of them, except the Theresienmesse (LSO) and the Paukenmesse, where the laconic info is "orchestra conducted by Leonard Bernstein". They are also the only performances recorded outside of New York.

Hmmm...pickup orchestra?
Jan 73 was Nixon's second inaugural. He may have been in town for that, although given Lenny's politics, I doubt he was thrilled.

[kishnevi]

The power of Google!
Search for Bernstein and Nixon, and lo!

http://people.howstuffworks.com/leonard-bernstein-richard-nixon-antiinaugural-concert-1973.htm

But at the exact same time a free and unofficial inauguration concert at the National Cathedral took place thanks to legendary conductor Leonard Bernstein. He led "A Concert for Peace," which became widely known as the "Anti-inaugural Concert."

Berstein's free "counter-concert" drew thousands of people to a venue that would only hold 3,000. Undeterred, an additional 12,000 to 15,000 people stood in the dark outside the National Cathedral as a soft rain fell. At the identical hour in which Nixon's official inaugural concert was being performed at the Kennedy Center, Bernstein closed the concert with Joseph Haydn's "Mass in Time of War," which was written in 1796, the same year Napoleon's armies overtook Austrian troops in Italy.

Bernstein enlisted an orchestra comprising local musicians, many of whom were members in the National Symphony Orchestra, as well a chorus of 125 volunteers led by local director Norman Scribner. Bernstein and the performers dressed not in formal attire, but in street clothes — a choice that drew applause from the audience.