Topic: Haydn's Masses

[Bunny]

Well, I have the Benelux Brilliant set, thus not overly concerned (for once) bout being left out of it all! 

Along with the Hickox "Black Box" Complete Masses and the Gardiner "6 Great Masses" set, I can honestly say that my desires in this direction are completely fulfilled! I don't compare amongst them, I simply enjoy the multiple merits of each. 

Yes, I've got that Gardiner box as well as Harnoncourt's recordings of Die Schöpfung and Die sieben letzen Worte."  Perhaps I should consider the Hickox box set, but I'm hoping that Paul McCreesh will do more of the masses.  His Creation is really something. 

[Gabriel]

The Harnoncourt recording of Haydn's second Te Deum is simply brilliant. About Weil's recordings, I haven't listened to them all, but the beautiful voice of Ann Monoyios is something that I will never forget. I haven't listened to Weil's Die Schöpfung, so I'd be very glad if somebody could express some comments.

I just wanna pop in real quick to give the thumbs-up to Hickox's set of the Haydn masses.  You get decent period instrument performances of all the masses and lots of Haydn's other sacred music in one handy-dandy box set.

Hickox's cycle of Haydn's masses is beautifully performed and has a great sound. I'm sorry, Sorin, but I think that "decent" is a bit pejorative for those excellent recordings.

[Harry]

I just wanna pop in real quick to give the thumbs-up to Hickox's set of the Haydn masses.  You get decent period instrument performances of all the masses and lots of Haydn's other sacred music in one handy-dandy box set.

I would go even further and say that these performances are insensitive, neglecting the finer details, very loud in expression, with over vibrant soprano's that have no place in a authentic performance.
I had the set and gave it away to someone that is not bothered by it. It was a revelation to hear the version by Bruno Weil.

[SonicMan46]

I would go even further and say that these performances are insensitive, neglecting the finer details, very loud in expression, with over vibrant soprano's that have no place in a authentic performance.
I had the set and gave it away to someone that is not bothered by it. It was a revelation to hear the version by Bruno Weil.

Harry - I've been reviewing these mass options for the last several days w/ the 'renewal' of this thread; now, I would really like to obtain the Weil box set - but was interested in your 'negative' comments on the versions w/ Hickox, despite others liking his interpretations.  There was also a 'scathing' 1* review on Amazon HERE that is not that well written but seems to raise some of the issues you mentioned; so, I guess that a little patience and hope that the Weil set will miraculously reappear?  Dave 

[Que]

Harry - I've been reviewing these mass options for the last several days w/ the 'renewal' of this thread; now, I would really like to obtain the Weil box set - but was interested in your 'negative' comments on the versions w/ Hickox, despite others liking his interpretations.  There was also a 'scathing' 1* review on Amazon HERE that is not that well written but seems to raise some of the issues you mentioned; so, I guess that a little patience and hope that the Weil set will miraculously reappear?  Dave 

The Weil set will reappear - see page 1 of this thread. But you'll have to buy the disc with the "Little Organ Mass" seperately, since it's not included (see post by Bunny), and the Weil set has not everything - Hickox has.

I tried the Hickox set when looking for a recording and found the playing as well as the singing unidiomatic, rather un-Haydn. Now, I often have reservations concerning British choruses in Germanic repertoire but unfortunately this was no exception. This is simply not the way this music has to be sung.

Q

[Sorin Eushayson]

I would go even further and say that these performances are insensitive, neglecting the finer details, very loud in expression, with over vibrant soprano's that have no place in a authentic performance.
I had the set and gave it away to someone that is not bothered by it. It was a revelation to hear the version by Bruno Weil.

I'm not a big fan of Hickox's approach here either, but I wouldn't say they're that bad!  I thought he did quite well with the earlier masses, especially No. 5.

[Antoine Marchand]

Merry Christmas to all! 

Today I have finished this superb set:

Haydn – Missen (compleet)
Tölzer Knabenchor
Tafelmusik
Bruno Weil
Recording: 1992-1996
Producer: Wolf Erichson
5 CD box
Brilliant Classics
All tracks licensed from Sony Music Benelux 

This Bruno Weil set is the most idiomatic sacred Haydn that I have heard ever. It conveys all that feeling of intimacy and self-confidence that I always want to be embodied in Haydn… I stress this point because my principal quibble about Hickox is certain “monumental” approach - a kind of “massivity”- that, finally, it is detrimental to his performances.

However, one point called my attention. This 5-CD set is presented by Brilliant under the title “Haydn / Missen (compleet)”, but it is far to be complete because it only includes the six late masses (Hob. XXII:9-14), composed between 1796-1802, and two earlier masses (Hob. XXII: 2 & 7). In short, six masses are missed here, but included in the Hickox’s complete mass edition. Additionaly, this year Sony reissued (4-CD set) the six late masses, not including the Missa "Sunt bona mixta malis", Hob XXII:2, the Missa brevis Sancti Joannis de Deo, Hob. XXII:7 ("Little Organ Mass") and the remaining pieces included in the CD5 of the Brilliant set.

Just to clarify this point -the information on internet is a little bit elusive about it- I have copied the works included in the Brilliant set (including a lot of wonderful "no-masses" sacred works):

CD1
- Missa, Hob. XXII:12
“Theresa Mass” Theresienmesse in B-flat major

- Missa in angustiis, Hob. XXII:11
“Nelson Mass” Nelsonmesse in D minor

CD2
- Missa in tempore belli Hob. XXII:9
Paukemesse “Mass in Time of War” for soloists, Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ

- Salve Regina, Hob. XXIIIb:2 for soloists, strings and concerted organ

- Motetto “O Coelitum beati”, Hob. XXIIIa: G9 for soloists, Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ

CD3
- Missa Nr. 11 “Schöpfungsmesse”
Hob. XXII:13 (1801) für Soli, Chor und Orchester

- Missa Nr. 12 “Harmoniemesse”
Hob. XXII:14 (1802) für Soli, Chor und Orchester

CD4
- Missa Sancti Bernardi de Offida, Hob. XXII:10
“Heiligmesse” for soloists, Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ

- Mare Clausum, Hob. XXIVa:9 (Fragment)
For Bass, Five-Part Chorus and Orchestra

- Motetto “Insanae et vanae curae”, Hob. XXI:13c for Four-Part Chorus and Orchestra

- Motetti de Venerabili Sacramento, Hob. XXIIIc:5 a-d for soloists, Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ

- Te Deum for the Empress Marie Therese, Hob. XXIIIc:2 for Four-Part Chorus, Orchestra and Organ

CD5
- Missa "Sunt bona mixta malis", Hob XXII:2 (Fragment/Frammento) for Chorus and Basso continuo

- Offertorium "Non nobis, Domine", Hob. XXIIIa:1 for Chorus and Basso continuo

- Ave Regina, Hob XXIIIb:3 for Solo Soprano, Chorus, Strings and Basso continuo

- Responsoria de Venerabili, Hob. XXIIIc:4a-d for Chorus, Strings, Two Horns and Basso continuo

- Responsorium ad absolutionem "Libera me", Hob XXIIb:1 for Chorus, Strings and Basso continuo

- Salve Regina, Hob. XXIIIb:1 for Solo Soprano, Chorus, Strings and Basso continuo

- Missa brevis Sancti Joannis de Deo, Hob. XXII:7 ("Little Organ Mass") for Chorus, Strings and Basso continuo


 

[Gurn Blanston]

And to you, Antoine.

Yes, I have both of the sets in question, and I agree with your assessment of the idiomatic quality to the Weil performances. They unquestionably sound more like chamber music than the Hickox versions do, although I rather do like the Hickox, with maybe a question or two about the singing. Both of them sound more intimate than the Gardiner in any case. I would have hoped that the Weil set had all the earlier works rather than all the late ones, but you take what you can get and be happy. And I was delighted to be blessed with this "Benelux Only" version.



----------------
Listening to:
Orchestra del Teatro Carlo Felice di Genova \ Massimo Quarta - Paganini Concerto #1 in d for Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro maestro

That's right, Paganini!

[Antoine Marchand]

And I was delighted to be blessed with this "Benelux Only" version.

Me too, Gurn.  And, certainly, I won’t the Hickox’s set out. Although, after your words, I will probably avoid the Gardiner’s set.

[Gurn Blanston]

Me too, Gurn.  And, certainly, I won’t the Hickox’s set out. Although, after your words, I will probably avoid the Gardiner’s set.

Well, don't think that the Gardiner is bad, as such, it is just that it sounds more like it is performed in St Stephen's in Vienna than in the little chapel at Esterhaza. Lovely playing and singing though. I just feel the authenticity of a chamber performance is more appropriate.



----------------
Listening to:
Orchestra del Teatro Carlo Felice di Genova \ Massimo Quarta - Paganini Concerto #6 in e for Violin 1st mvmt - Risoluto

[Franco]

I have Wishlisted this Haydn Masses set:

HAYDN, J.: Masses (Complete) (Trinity Choir, Rebel Baroque Orchestra, Burdick, Glover) (8 CD Box set)

[SonicMan46]

Hmmm - I could use some more of Joe's Masses!  Just own the 3-CD Gardiner box, which I do enjoy (cheap buy when I use to belong to the BMG Club) - the Brilliant box looks good w/ 5 discs - I've read some 'mixed' feelings about the singing & BIGNESS of the Hickox performances, but 8 discs, and I do own a number of Hickox boxes of other composers.

Any comments on the 8-disc offering by Naxos attached?  Thanks all - 

[Lilas Pastia]

By all means, don't miss on the 1766-73 Missa Cellensis (the so-called St-Cecilia Mass). It's anything but 'early' Haydn. By far the longest of Haydn's masses (the Gloria only lasts 30 minutes), it's in the 'missa solemnis' genre with a very elaborate musical treatment. It is also by far Haydn's most 'austrian' choral work - rustic, closer to the country than the city, with a simple devotional quality. It's also brimming with gorgeous tunes and Haydn's trademark musical surprises.

Unfortunately it's not included in the Gardiner, Harnoncourt or Weill sets, so if one goes for those, you'll never get to know that wonderful work. Hickox has included it in his traversal, and there's a couple of very good individual versions. Jochum (DG) is wonderful. A relaxed, immensely affectionate yet powerful treatment (BRSO) with great soloists. My favourite is the Gerhard Wilhelm mid-seventies Electrola set reissued by EMI on a budget twofer. I've had that on lp  (and now on cd) for over 30 years. It's one of those productions that disarms criticism and makes one bask in the music. Sprightly yet comfortable, intimate yet buoyantly extraverted in the right places. I'm not sure if it's HIP. It sounds like those late sixties' early seventies' Collegium Aureum producitons, complete with boy's choir. The sound is spledidly airy, spacious yet warm.

Among older versions of Haydn masses, I love Ferencsik's  Nelson Mass and Kubelik's Missa in tempore belli. both have a kind of 'authentic' flavour to them that sounds sui generis. Compared to that, a lot of later productions can safely be passed.

[Antoine Marchand]

My favourite is the Gerhard Wilhelm mid-seventies Electrola set reissued by EMI on a budget twofer. I've had that on lp  (and now on cd) for over 30 years. It's one of those productions that disarms criticism and makes one bask in the music. Sprightly yet comfortable, intimate yet buoyantly extraverted in the right places. I'm not sure if it's HIP. It sounds like those late sixties' early seventies' Collegium Aureum producitons, complete with boy's choir. The sound is spledidly airy, spacious yet warm.

It looks enticing, Lilas; thanks for the info.

I currently have two versions of this mass: Hickox -fine performance here- and Bernius, included in the Haydn big box, not too much to my taste. 

[DarkAngel]

Antoine
I followed your lead on the Tafelmusik Masses...............
At Amazon USA they sell a very cheap 4CD boxset by Sony Vivarte label for $12 new, can't pass that up 

Sonic
This is a nice middle step instead of buying big Naxos boxset

[SonicMan46]

Sonic
This is a nice middle step instead of buying big Naxos boxset

DA - thanks for the recommendation; just checked the listings for that great bargain set, and a lot of overlap w/ my Gardiner 3-CDs of 6 'late' masses (definition of 'late' Haydn masses seems to vary) - I guess that André has encouraged me to add some of the 'earlier' masses - the Naxos box received a great review HERE, even a 'Recording of the Month' - hard for me to believe from Trinity Church and a bunch of unknowns - would love to hear from those who may have this Naxos offering - but my 'ears' are wide open to suggestions & comments!  Dave 

[The new erato]

By all means, don't miss on the 1766-73 Missa Cellensis (the so-called St-Cecilia Mass). It's anything but 'early' Haydn. By far the longest of Haydn's masses (the Gloria only lasts 30 minutes), it's in the 'missa solemnis' genre with a very elaborate musical treatment. It is also by far Haydn's most 'austrian' choral work - rustic, closer to the country than the city, with a simple devotional quality. It's also brimming with gorgeous tunes and Haydn's trademark musical surprises.

Have you heard Acadamy of Ancient Music under Simon Preston? A double LP on L'Oiseau-Lyre opened my ears to Haydn's masses many years ago.

[Lilas Pastia]

Have you heard Acadamy of Ancient Music under Simon Preston? A double LP on L'Oiseau-Lyre opened my ears to Haydn's masses many years ago.

Yes I have, and it's good, but I feel it falls a bit short. Slightly too fast and 'straight', with little emotion.  I love the way Jochum and Wilhelm fill the expanses of their respective haydnian vision at an unhurried, yet genuinely ambling pace.Gemütlichkeit (as per this Wiki definition) exemplifies the character of the Wilhelm version. It is airy, almost airborne (the Kyrie). Jochum has a more solemn and somber approach (aided by the large orchestra). Both have excellent soloists, but by and large Wilhelm's roster is unexcelled. Another thing I don't really like with Preston is the 'white' tone of the boys' choir. Wilhelm's Stuttgarter Hymnus Knabenchor is more to my taste.

There's also a Kubelik version (Orfeo) that for some is unexcelled - I haven't heard it. It should be noted that Jo van Immerseel and Musica Eterna have recorded the Missa Cellensis, and are poised to do the whole corpus.

[Antoine Marchand]

Any comments on the 8-disc offering by Naxos attached?  Thanks all - 

I know, probably I didn't need another set of these masses, but who will cast the first stone here? 

I purchased this set today in a local store. Although I have just listened to the CD2 - Missa Cellensis in honorem BVM, “Cäcilienmesse” - two times - I can say that at least this disc is a delightfully beautiful recording: excellent voices (soloists and chorus), some kind of general lightness, great balance between instruments and voices, irreproachable acoustics and, especially, that marvelous Haydnian joie de vivre. We will see how this story follows. 

[SonicMan46]

I know, probably I didn't need another set of these masses, but who will cast the first stone here? 

I purchased this set today in a local store. Although I have just listened to the CD2 - Missa Cellensis in honorem BVM, “Cäcilienmesse” - two times - I can say that at least this disc is a delightfully beautiful recording: excellent voices (soloists and chorus), some kind of general lightness, great balance between instruments and voices, irreproachable acoustics and, especially, that marvelous Haydnian joie de vivre. We will see how this story follows. 

Antoine - I'm about 80% committed to buying this Naxos box of the Haydn Masses - the reviews have been excellent (w/ just a few negative but minor comments) - will look forward to your future listening comments - if you are positive about the rest of this project, then will likely be a definite purchase for me!  Hope to hear from you soon - Dave