Simon Rattle (1955-)

[lordlance]

After talking with @Brian, I have decided to start threads dedicated to conductors - a passion of mine since I started listening to classical music over a decade ago and which shapes much of my listening habits. One of my early fascinations has been Simon Rattle. His career remains a bit puzzling because he's famous but his reputations among listeners feels decidedly mixed to negative. He's often been accused of being excessively fussy.

His discography is not insignificantly large but most of it is from his CBSO Years on EMI. His real BPO legacy remains on the Digital Concert Hall (DCH) where aside from the core repertoire, he programmed a lot of modern music but also lesser known music from the greats such as - a real favorite - Schumann's Concert Piece for Four Horns. To me, Rattle ultimately is a composer for modern/contemporary music and not Romantic. music. 

It's a bit strange he's held such distinguished posts as MD of BPO, LSO and now BRSO, considering that you would think excelling at the core repertoire would be the bare minimum requirement. 

Of what I've heard from him in the standard repertoire, he remains entirely unremarkable. Mozart's 39-41, Brahms' symphonies, piano concertos (live performances on DCH are workmanlike), violin concerto, Beethoven's symphonies (the BPO cycle is absolutely awful if from the tempi than nothing else), Schumann's symphonies (again kind of OK). His Bruckner is exceptionally bad (that LSO Sixth - oof!)

I must say though that I did enjoy his Mahler Sixth with BPO from 2018 that was his farewell concert as MD. 

A real oddity might also be the Beethoven's VC with Widmann's cadenza. Strange and unusually long but novel at least.

What does stand out though is his programming of unusual pieces or composers such as recently playing the entire Slavonic Dances set with BPO (when was the last time they played that?) or now Gerhard's Symphony No. 3/Don Quixote, Beethoven's Christ on the Mount of Olives and many other things... The results may not always be successful but at least it's beyond the stale standard repertoire. 

I realize this isn't exactly a glowing review but still I've followed him closely for many years and still do as now with his videos that are on BRSO's website. 

Those are my 2 cents. What do others think of him and which composers do you think he succeeds at? 

[ultralinear]

I've heard Rattle with the LSO in concert a fair number of times, and agree with a lot of what you say.  I wouldn't generally go hear him conduct core repertoire, unless there was something else on the program which might suit him better. 

He is however a superb communicator of music, and his Shostakovich is an outstanding example of this.  I really don't know why he doesn't record it.  What comes across is his understanding and analysis of the music.

Last year he conducted the finest 4th Symphony I have ever heard, on record or in concert, preceded with a short talk explaining his view of the music.  He began by reading out the official 1930's definition of the Socialist Realism to which all Soviet artists were expected to conform - simple, cheerful, uplifting, featuring folk themes - then picked up the score and said: Open this at any point, and what you find is this.  He conducted the orchestra in about half a minute's excerpt from the first movement, then turns back to the audience: You can see the problem.

We then got a 15-minute exposition on both the structure and detail of the symphony, with many illustrations of the sarcasm running through it - for example, the inclusion of what Shostakovich knew to be Stalin's favourite folk song, but scored so as to sound as if played by a drunken village band just going through the motions.  I thought I knew the symphony quite well, but I learned a lot.  And the following performance was edge-of-the-seat stuff.  I doubt very much I'll ever hear a better one.

[Mandryka]

I heard him in Rheingold and it was OK, inoffensive. He was good in Pelleas. On record I enjoyed Sibelius 6 and Daphnis and aux canyons and Etoiles recently - he has a good feel for 20th century French music possibly. There are some excellent things with the Birmingham orchestra - Mahler 10 f. e.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I've heard Rattle several times live with 3 different orchestras. Each time, it was a good-to-great concert. I do agree that he's probably more suited to modern music than standard rep. With standard rep, his main fault seems to be that he really wants to stand out against the crowd, so he'll make interpretive choices that are gratuitous or exaggerated. I also think he was somewhat over-praised and maybe over-recorded when he was just getting started.

Some Rattle recordings I like are his Adams disc with Harmonielehre, the Walton Sym #1, the DSCH Sym #4, and his disc of 3 Haydn symphonies including #90, which I heard him do live. All of those with Birmingham. That early Mahler 10 with Bournemouth is also good.

[vandermolen]

I've heard Rattle several times live with 3 different orchestras. Each time, it was a good-to-great concert. I do agree that he's probably more suited to modern music than standard rep. With standard rep, his main fault seems to be that he really wants to stand out against the crowd, so he'll make interpretive choices that are gratuitous or exaggerated. I also think he was somewhat over-praised and maybe over-recorded when he was just getting started.

Some Rattle recordings I like are his Adams disc with Harmonielehre, the Walton Sym #1, the DSCH Sym #4, and his disc of 3 Haydn symphonies including #90, which I heard him do live. All of those with Birmingham. That early Mahler 10 with Bournemouth is also good.

I like his recording of Sibelius's 3rd Symphony (originally on EMI).

[DavidW]

Mahler's 10th and the Brahms symphonies spring to mind. I don't know if his recordings are ever bad. They're just not interesting enough to be competitive.

[Der lächelnde Schatten]

Certainly a hit/miss conductor --- mostly miss in my book. There are a few composers I find him absolutely fine in, though, like: the Second Viennese School, Szymanowski, some Debussy and Britten. That's about it! Oh and I do rather enjoy his recording of John Adams --- his Harmonielehre is still fantastic to my ears. [In Columbo voice] And just one more thing, I find his Mahler grossly overrated and undernourished. He just doesn't "have it" in Mahler.

[Xerxes]

I love this from Rattle:

[Herman]

I ain't no Rattle basher, however, if it's about the Lohengrin prelude, just go to the Dresden and Thielemann for more Wagnerian intensity (and fewer funny faces).

Starts at 2:05

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeBOfAXpojI

[lordlance]

My dive into Rattle continues...

1. First an actual half decent performance of Bruckner: this time of the Ninth (the incomplete edition thankfully) with the BRSO taken from November 2024. It's good to hear him perform Bruckner which isn't utterly workmanlike.

2. Rattle has performed a lot of Brahms (multiple recordings of the symphonies, VC, PCs exist on DCH). I decided to hear his most recent performance of the Second from 2018. Bad choice. What's with the lethargic tempi? He doesn't always adopt such plodding tempi. I gave up after 5-6 minutes. 

[lordlance]

Rattle update!

• Widmann Tanz auf dem Vulkan: What a wonderful little ditty. The other pieces I have heard by Widmann have not been such light, jovial affair. This is what I meant earlier re: Rattle. This piece is just fun. Orchestra starts before Rattle enters with what seems like a peppy jazz music, the audience claps and Rattle has to tell them to stop like a headmaster, the music turns more... well contemporary-esque, the piece segues back to being jazz-like where Rattle leaves early thanking the players after before the piece finally ends. I really enjoy such mixing of distinct musical styles (also why I like Schnittke I suppose.)
• Dvorak Slavonic Dances, Op. 72 (Czech PO): It's ok. I can't say it's a rip-roaring performance that stands with the greats. He clearly loves these pieces considering we will have 3 sets of the two books by the end of this year from him but the issue might be that he is too micro-managerial. It feels like the orchestra never really lets go. It's an issue that plagues his LSO and BPO performances too. Also I find the Slavonic Dances to be of variable quality and listening to an entire set in one go feels like overkill.
• Brahms PC1 Vogt: I can't believe it. An actual good concerto performance by Rattle. He's done so many medicore concertos (Brahms and Beethoven both) but no this is a good, solid performance with suitable heft. It's not simply an average concert. I rate it like a 7.5.

Preface before the third piece:

My introduction to the Sinfonia Concertante and 90 was thanks to Rattle's EMI disc of 88-92/SC. Listening to a proper live performance of the 90th and hearing Haydn prank the audience not once but twice was just delightful. It still is. The piece is not meant to be played in the studio. Rattle performed it during COVID without an audience with BRSO - IIRC - (on YouTube) and that was just kind of sad. Musical pauses for no reason. Still Rattle performing pieces like these is why I love him and have a great affinity for him even if his musical results can be lacklustre. That spirit of adventure, of programming unknown pieces, of such a wide, wide repertoire that stretches from baroque to contemporary, from American and jazz to Szymanowski. All conductors may program contemporary pieces but I get the feeling it's part of the job so they do the bare minimum as opposed to Rattle who has championed modern music consistently and programmed obscure pieces.

(OK, fanboying over.)

• Haydn 99: Despite all of that, I find this Haydn lacklustre. It's actually typical of his style which feels somewhat emaciated. HIPster Haydn can be wonderful and I usually prefer them over the bloat that characterizes traditional interpretations but in this case the orchestra just needs more power, more oomph.  It's a bit like (late) Abbado in that respect... You can slim down the orchestra but that doesn't mean you can't have a punchy performance.
• Brahms VC Tetzlaff: More of what I expect from Rattle. Workmanlike. Nothing distinguished. Typical concert. Although a few cookie points for what is a very lively - perhaps too fast - last movement.
• Rachmaninoff PC3 Trifonov: Again a very good performance of the Rachmaninoff PC3. I was pleasantly surprised by this actually. His performance of the Third was dead-on-arrival. You need that Russian brashness in Rachmaninoff which very clearly the BPO performance didn't have. Somewhat surprisingly, a later performance with BPO from a newbie (Eun Sun Kim) was vastly better. It's a bit curious how someone who's playing with BPO for the first time could turn a performance that is leagues better than their long-time MD but c'est la vie.
• Petrushka 2017 BPO: A definite winner! I suppose I've read about Rattle's affinity for Stravinsky[1] but this was a really good performance with tempi on the faster side.

I know my musical vocabulary is severely limited so I can't write proper, detailed critique but I hope this was helpful to/piqued interest of a few people.

[André]

I've seldom heard a Rattle recording I liked wholesale. There's always something in his conducting that attracts attention to his interpretive decisions. Which is fine, I guess. Except I feel he does that because he doesn't wholly trusts the listeners' judgment (or taste!).

For example, his much vaunted Birmingham Mahler 2. I feel he italicizes passages not for effect, but for building an argument. True, the end result is hugely impressive, but it makes me feel I've been subjected to a lecture that omits certain facts and stresses others. IOW it's not objective while purporting it to be. It's a very subjective feeling, but I can never shake the impression.

That being said, I agree he has been an important conducting figure throughout his various tenures, especially in his advocacy of contemporary music.

[DavidW]

For example, his much vaunted Birmingham Mahler 2. I feel he italicizes passages not for effect, but for building an argument. True, the end result is hugely impressive, but it makes me feel I've been subjected to a lecture that omits certain facts and stresses others. IOW it's not objective while purporting it to be. It's a very subjective feeling, but I can never shake the impression.

That is also how I felt about Kaplan's M2.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I've seldom heard a Rattle recording I liked wholesale. There's always something in his conducting that attracts attention to his interpretive decisions. Which is fine, I guess. Except I feel he does that because he doesn't wholly trusts the listeners' judgment (or taste!).

Nicely put. These interpretive flourishes work better in concert than on a recording, because in a concert you only hear them once. But on repeated listening, they become somewhat annoying. That probably explains why my live experiences with Rattle have been so good but the recordings more of a mixed bag.

[Peter Power Pop]

I can thoroughly recommend Rattle's Stravinsky compilation:

[Peter Power Pop]

I'd also like to recommend Simon Rattle: The Jazz Album, from 1987. It's a heap of fun, and almost as much fun as the album cover.

[arpeggio]

There must be something wrong with my ears.
I know he has a mixed reputation with some.
I have been listening to Rattle for years.  I may dislike some of his interpretations but I normally enjoy his stuff.
I subscribe to Marque.  Right now I am listening to Rattle conducting the Roy Harris Third Symphony.  It sounds OK to me.

[lordlance]

There must be something wrong with my ears.
I know he has a mixed reputation with some.
I have been listening to Rattle for years.  I may dislike some of his interpretations but I normally enjoy his stuff.
I subscribe to Marque.  Right now I am listening to Rattle conducting the Roy Harris Third Symphony.  It sounds OK to me.

Well Rattle _is_ a modernist apparently which is why it makes it a bit puzzling for such major orchestras that essentially need you to excel at traditional Classical/Romantic repertoire -- there he is rather... underwhelming/a bit faceless. 

The breadth of his repertoire, though, is rather large. One can find a lot of new stuff just following his recordings and concerts [YT, DCH, br-klassik.de.]

Can't fault him for boring picks if nothing else.

[Karl Henning]

Rattle _is_ a modernist apparently which is why it makes it a bit puzzling for such major orchestras that essentially need you to excel at traditional Classical/Romantic repertoire -- there he is rather... underwhelming/a bit faceless.

More than I can speak to, though on the face of it, it sounds reasonable. I've enjoyed him in practically everything I've heard him do, but then, I haven't sought him out in the mainstream rep.

[DavidW]

There must be something wrong with my ears.
I know he has a mixed reputation with some.
I have been listening to Rattle for years.  I may dislike some of his interpretations but I normally enjoy his stuff.
I subscribe to Marque.  Right now I am listening to Rattle conducting the Roy Harris Third Symphony.  It sounds OK to me.

Myself and others said that he wasn't bad, just underwhelming and overhyped.