Simon Rattle (1955-)

[Herman]

Clearly Rattle does something orchestras like, I mean, LSO, BPO and now BRSO...

I agree with previous posters who say he hardly ever is best.

I remember watching a Sol Gabetta performance of the Elgar Cello concerto, with the Berlin Phil conducted by Rattle, and noticing that Gabetta kind of took over direction, by keeping eye contact with the concertmaster to her right, because Rattle was just not quite there.

[Mandryka]

Clearly Rattle does something orchestras like, I mean, LSO, BPO and now BRSO...

I agree with previous posters who say he hardly ever is best.

I remember watching a Sol Gabetta performance of the Elgar Cello concerto, with the Berlin Phil conducted by Rattle, and noticing that Gabetta kind of took over direction, by keeping eye contact with the concertmaster to her right, because Rattle was just not quite there.

That reminds of a time when I saw him conduct an unstaged Wagner opera and at some point he put his baton down and just listened to the music. In fact, I knew the guy who sang Fasholt in the performance and he never commented on it, he thought all went well.

[lordlance]

Despite being one of the six non British Rattle fans, despite the vitriolic phrasing of Dave, he has a point when he was going over the CBSO box... He made our 50 or 60 discs with them... Another twenty? With BPO.... Let's say another 15 with BRSO and LSO combined... We're talking about a discography that's 80-90 discs... How much, if any of it, will survive the test of time? In the standard repertoire that is.

Not a lot of competition for things like a Henze symphony or Peter Maxwell Davies 1 or Turnage...

[Herman]

That reminds of a time when I saw him conduct an unstaged Wagner opera and at some point he put his baton down and just listened to the music. In fact, I knew the guy who sang Fasholt in the performance and he never commented on it, he thought all went well.

It could mean everything was well prepared in rehearsal.

[ultralinear]

It could mean everything was well prepared in rehearsal.

That was my impression on the occasion when I saw Gerd Albrecht conduct Bruckner's 8th Symphony, in which at various points he let his arms hang by his sides, appearing simply to be listening to what was one of the most convincing performances I'd heard, needing no additional direction by that stage.

[San Antone]

Some recordings by Simon Rattle which I think are surprisingly good were his Gershwin group:

Rhapsody in Blue
The Songbook
Piano Concerto in F (all with pianist Peter Donohoe)

And most impressive, his recording of Porgy & Bess in at the time the most complete version.

Rattle managed to do a very good job with this most American of composers.

[Brian]

That was my impression on the occasion when I saw Gerd Albrecht conduct Bruckner's 8th Symphony, in which at various points he let his arms hang by his sides, appearing simply to be listening to what was one of the most convincing performances I'd heard, needing no additional direction by that stage.

Albrecht and his orchestra are so experienced in Bruckner that it would not surprise me.

Similarly when I saw Antoni Wit in Warsaw with Mahler 3, he simply counted 1-2-3-4 (or 1-2-3) and did nothing else whatsoever. The one exception was to turn and face the children's chorus for all of "bim-bam."

[Spotted Horses]

DG released a video in which various performers reminisced about their interaction with Karajan. Rattle appeared, and after remarking that Karajan had been very kind and generous with him early in his career, went on to excoriate Karajan's musical legacy. It put me off Rattle as a self-important, ungrateful asshole. I don't recall listening to any Rattle after seeing that.

[Der lächelnde Schatten]

DG released a video in which various performers reminisced about their interaction with Karajan. Rattle appeared, and after remarking that Karajan had been very kind and generous with him early in his career, went on to excoriate Karajan's musical legacy. It put me off Rattle as a self-important, ungrateful asshole. I don't recall listening to any Rattle after seeing that.

The thing with Rattle is there isn't much repertoire that he's recorded that someone else hasn't done already with the exception of some British composers like Adès or Nicholas Maw. When he speaks about not caring much for Karajan, it really doesn't matter, because Karajan's grip on the Austro-Germanic repertoire will elude Rattle for as long as he lives. Also, it doesn't matter how hard Rattle works, Karajan's place in the history of this music will continue to weigh on Rattle who really hasn't made much of a dent.

That's my two measly cents. I like some of Rattle's recordings, but I wouldn't say he's the bee's knees.

[Herman]

Also, it doesn't matter how hard Rattle works, Karajan's place in the history of this music will continue to weigh on Rattle who really hasn't made much of a dent.

Why would this apply to Rattle in particular?

Nobody will ever record as much and to such general applause as Karajan, due to the era he matured in. Ormandy and Szell came close.
No conductor with a recording contract will ever again be as massively big as Karajan.Rattle is of course fully aware of this, and by the way it looks he's having a wonderful life just the same, playing with the best orchestras in Europe (with the exception of Amsterdam which wants no truck with him).

[Mandryka]

 

[Karl Henning]

DG released a video in which various performers reminisced about their interaction with Karajan. Rattle appeared, and after remarking that Karajan had been very kind and generous with him early in his career, went on to excoriate Karajan's musical legacy. It put me off Rattle as a self-important, ungrateful asshole. I don't recall listening to any Rattle after seeing that.

Very bad form.

[DavidW]

That Berlin Phil interview paints a very different picture from the DG interview that Spotted Horses described. Rattle sees Karajan as both a great artist and an eccentric. It is a very real interview. The kind of honesty we should be praising.

[Herman]

So is this perhaps the Rattle-on-Karajan talk Spotted H talks about?

Rattle says he doesn't understand how Karajan conducted with his eyes closed and it's clear he would never want to do this himself. But that's the whole thing.
Later he talks about Karajan being so kind and courteous when R and K met in Berlin.

If this is the video then it's yet another case of blowing things musicians say way out of proportion.

[Iota]

That Berlin Phil interview paints a very different picture from the DG interview that Spotted Horses described. Rattle sees Karajan as both a great artist and an eccentric. It is a very real interview. The kind of honesty we should be praising.

I must say I agree with this. I don't really get along with quite a bit of Rattle what does (though some things I find superb), but here I think he is just giving an honest opinion, delivered directly but without malice and I respect him for it. As @DavidW says Rattle is both in awe of and confounded by Karajan, who still bestrides the musical world with a vast and adoring following, and these comments I imagine will make no difference to that at all.

Rattle says he doesn't understand how Karajan conducted with his eyes closed and it's clear he would never want to do this himself.

A school friend of mine who was in the European Youth Orchestra in the 70s when Karajan came to conduct them (very much in the spirit of wanting to help young musicians as Rattle describes), said they were all really amused by how he always kept his eyes closed, and so one day in a rehearsal, when Karajan closed his eyes to bring them in, they closed their eyes too (very boldly imo!), and when his hands came down there was complete silence. Obviously he opened his eyes, and when he saw the sea of faces with closed eyes he took it very well and started laughing. He then explained that the reason he closed his eyes was because he had a photographic memory and was following the score in his head as he conducted it.

[DavidW]

So is this perhaps the Rattle-on-Karajan talk Spotted H talks about?

Rattle says he doesn't understand how Karajan conducted with his eyes closed and it's clear he would never want to do this himself. But that's the whole thing.
Later he talks about Karajan being so kind and courteous when R and K met in Berlin.

If this is the video then it's yet another case of blowing things musicians say way out of proportion.

I think Spotted Horses was talking about a different interview. I was once interviewed by PBS, and it went for 5-10 minutes and only roughly 30 seconds taken from different parts end up being used. In my case it was not malicious, but it could have easily been that way for Rattle in the DG interview. The Berlin Phil interview left his long, conflicted thoughts intact.

[relm1]

I must say I agree with this. I don't really get along with quite a bit of Rattle what does (though some things I find superb), but here I think he is just giving an honest opinion, delivered directly but without malice and I respect him for it. As @DavidW says Rattle is both in awe of and confounded by Karajan, who still bestrides the musical world with a vast and adoring following, and these comments I imagine will make no difference to that at all.

A school friend of mine who was in the European Youth Orchestra in the 70s when Karajan came to conduct them (very much in the spirit of wanting to help young musicians as Rattle describes), said they were all really amused by how he always kept his eyes closed, and so one day in a rehearsal, when Karajan closed his eyes to bring them in, they closed their eyes too (very boldly imo!), and when his hands came down there was complete silence. Obviously he opened his eyes, and when he saw the sea of faces with closed eyes he took it very well and started laughing. He then explained that the reason he closed his eyes was because he had a photographic memory and was following the score in his head as he conducted it.

Lovely story!  I love it when we hear of musician jokes from orchestras.  Here is one I heard about, Andre Previn had just taken over the LSO I think in the late 1960's.  The orchestra was going to haze him because he was very young, American, and mostly known as a jazz pianist/film composer at that point.  The oboist detuned their A up to a B flat and the whole orchestra tuned incorrectly.  Previn walked to the podium, raised his hands about to give the downbeat, paused then asked the whole orchestra to transpose the piece down a half step.  Everyone laughed because he caught the joke/trap they had set.