Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)

[Todd]

Re Smetana - your comment does not apply if you are Czech for whom he is the father of Czech music - Libuse/Dalibor etc etc....

The narrowness of your assertion does not lend itself to supporting inflated claims of Smetana's greatness. 

Re Coleridge Taylor - here is a recent BBC Classical Music list of the 25 "Greatest British COmposers of ALL TIME" (My bolding!):

So?  How many people read that publication, believe it, retain the information, base purchasing decisions on it, and base concert and recital programming on it?  Coleridge-Taylor is obscure even on this forum, which revels in obscurity.  I looked up the thread devoted to the composer, and the last post is a complaint from you from several years ago.  That puts your current posts in a broader context.

[steve ridgway]

Re Coleridge Taylor - here is a recent BBC Classical Music list of the 25 "Greatest British Composers of ALL TIME" (My bolding!):

Are there as many as that?!

[Roasted Swan]

Are there as many as that?!

Good Answer!! (probably not).  In truth although Bax is my favourite composer I'm not sure I'd call him great.  To my mind musical greatness goes beyond individual technical skill or individuality (Bax has both of those in spades) but involves enduring influence and impact - neither of which Bax (or Delius or Ireland etc etc) have.  But I still love 'em all!!

[Brian]

The thing is I genuinely really like C-T's music but to inflate its stature annoys me.

How is his stature inflated by inclusion in a mixed rep Chandos recording?

I have to side with Todd here - the whole point of a mixed-repertoire program is to mix repertoire, and very naturally many or most such programs will include composers of varying greatness. The artists may have some artistic reason that they feel the music belongs together. They may explain it in the booklet. Maybe the music sounds good together. We don't know! But there are so many more reasons to account for including a 15-minute work - as filler!! - than that the performers found some piece to fulfill a media narrative.

Even to capture media attention - they don't need to do that because Chandos already gets big reviews in the British press for everything they do.

I guess my bigger question for you, as a person who (like me) likes C-T's, music, is: how would you tell the difference between the "correct" way to record his music and the "inflated" way? Would you accept a new recording of his Violin Concerto coupled to the Delius but object to a recording coupled to the Elgar?

[Roasted Swan]

I have to side with Todd here - the whole point of a mixed-repertoire program is to mix repertoire, and very naturally many or most such programs will include composers of varying greatness. The artists may have some artistic reason that they feel the music belongs together. They may explain it in the booklet. Maybe the music sounds good together. We don't know! But there are so many more reasons to account for including a 15-minute work - as filler!! - than that the performers found some piece to fulfill a media narrative.

Even to capture media attention - they don't need to do that because Chandos already gets big reviews in the British press for everything they do.

I guess my bigger question for you, as a person who (like me) likes C-T's, music, is: how would you tell the difference between the "correct" way to record his music and the "inflated" way? Would you accept a new recording of his Violin Concerto coupled to the Delius but object to a recording coupled to the Elgar?

Good points all.  Personally I would say the C-T concerto does not require any more recordings because the work has had sufficient (good) performances that its quality deserves.  Where is a recording of W H Reed's concerto for example instead - now that might be an interesting coupling with the Elgar!

The 1st recording of the C-T concerto was genuinely revelatory and rather wonderful because it is an attractive work that deserves to be heard.  But it is also a relatively minor concerto in the grander scheme.  So let's not simply bash out more recordings of the piece because of the back-story of the composer.  Personally I find it hard to believe that on this new disc this work is included because it is the best possible coupling/filler for this collection of Suk/Smetana/Martin but rather because C-T is a "flavour of the year" and might increase sales/publicity by its inclusion.  As such if this is a commercial decision I'm fine with that.  Just don't pretend it's because the music is of particular merit.  I'm sure it will be well written, well crafted and attractive.  But so is a lot of other music too.

[Brian]

Good points all.  Personally I would say the C-T concerto does not require any more recordings because the work has had sufficient (good) performances that its quality deserves.  Where is a recording of W H Reed's concerto for example instead - now that might be an interesting coupling with the Elgar!

The 1st recording of the C-T concerto was genuinely revelatory and rather wonderful because it is an attractive work that deserves to be heard.  But it is also a relatively minor concerto in the grander scheme.  So let's not simply bash out more recordings of the piece because of the back-story of the composer.  Personally I find it hard to believe that on this new disc this work is included because it is the best possible coupling/filler for this collection of Suk/Smetana/Martin but rather because C-T is a "flavour of the year" and might increase sales/publicity by its inclusion.  As such if this is a commercial decision I'm fine with that.  Just don't pretend it's because the music is of particular merit.  I'm sure it will be well written, well crafted and attractive.  But so is a lot of other music too.

Good points likewise. I just looked the concerto up - six recordings! That really is an astonishing/excessive number. I only knew Marwood and Tasmin Little. I also looked up the piano trio on the new disc - appears to be a world premiere; there is no rival listed on Presto.

I guess the question of how many recordings a work should receive is so large and abstract that I usually don't hold an opinion on it besides the blanket suggestion of "one more - if it's great." As is the question of what gets recorded at all - honestly sometimes, with labels like CPO around, I feel like eventually they will get around to everything.

What I am curious about is why this conversation erupted over a (seeming) world premiere of a minor but nice composer, vs., say, last month, when Ondine announced they are recording a new Ferdinand Ries symphony cycle to compete with the CPO version. Or if it will recur next month, when Bavarian Radio releases (according to Presto) the 17th CD recording of Bruckner's Mass No. 3, and also next month, the 7th Frank Bridge Oration, the 2nd Kenneth Fuchs bass trombone concerto, and the 2nd Zemlinsky Florentine Tragedy this year alone (the last came out in April, and two came out in 2014).

[Daverz]

Good points all.  Personally I would say the C-T concerto does not require any more recordings

You will now be forever associated in my mind with the Great Coleridge-Taylor Glut of 2024, just like Mirror Image is forever linked with Delius. 

[Roasted Swan]

You will now be forever associated in my mind with the Great Coleridge-Taylor Glut of 2024, just like Mirror Image is forever linked with Delius. 

I am honoured.  Many years ago I arranged C-T's Petite Suite de Concert for my string quartet - the transcription works really well (though I say it myself!).  Demande et Reponse is one of the most tranquil and beautiful things I know

[kyjo]

What I am curious about is why this conversation erupted over a (seeming) world premiere of a minor but nice composer, vs., say, last month, when Ondine announced they are recording a new Ferdinand Ries symphony cycle to compete with the CPO version. Or if it will recur next month, when Bavarian Radio releases (according to Presto) the 17th CD recording of Bruckner's Mass No. 3, and also next month, the 7th Frank Bridge Oration, the 2nd Kenneth Fuchs bass trombone concerto, and the 2nd Zemlinsky Florentine Tragedy this year alone (the last came out in April, and two came out in 2014).

Well, I'd much rather have any of those recordings than the 63829472th Beethoven symphony cycle! Though I do (partially) agree regarding the new Ries symphony cycle on Ondine. The CPO cycle already boasts terrific performances and sound, and the symphonies aren't Ries' most distinctive works anyways (those would be his chamber works).

Regarding Coleridge-Taylor, sure, he may not have been a "major" composer but his best works exhibit a freshness and melodic memorability. He's been referred to as the "Black Mahler" but his music is much closer to, say, Dvorak in spirit. I can confidently recommend this recent Chandos (Todd's favorite label ) disc of his Nonet, Piano Trio and Piano Quintet:



The Piano Trio is pretty "small beer" if I recall, but the Piano Quintet and Nonet (Op. 1 and 2, respectively) are both unfailingly melodious and attractive. And the performances by the Kaleidoscope Chamber Collective are supremely characterful, with liberal use of portamenti by the string players (which I love).

Other favorite Coleridge-Taylor works of mine are his Violin Concerto, Clarinet Quintet, and Ballade in A minor for orchestra. It would be interesting to see what he would have accomplished had he lived longer...

[Roasted Swan]

Well, I'd much rather have any of those recordings than the 63829472th Beethoven symphony cycle! Though I do (partially) agree regarding the new Ries symphony cycle on Ondine. The CPO cycle already boasts terrific performances and sound, and the symphonies aren't Ries' most distinctive works anyways (those would be his chamber works).

Regarding Coleridge-Taylor, sure, he may not have been a "major" composer but his best works exhibit a freshness and melodic memorability. He's been referred to as the "Black Mahler" but his music is much closer to, say, Dvorak in spirit. I can confidently recommend this recent Chandos (Todd's favorite label ) disc of his Nonet, Piano Trio and Piano Quintet:



The Piano Trio is pretty "small beer" if I recall, but the Piano Quintet and Nonet (Op. 1 and 2, respectively) are both unfailingly melodious and attractive. And the performances by the Kaleidoscope Chamber Collective are supremely characterful, with liberal use of portamenti by the string players (which I love).

Other favorite Coleridge-Taylor works of mine are his Violin Concerto, Clarinet Quintet, and Ballade in A minor for orchestra. It would be interesting to see what he would have accomplished had he lived longer...

That's a fine disc of chamber works amd well played too.

[Brian]

I remember the Nonet in particular being absolutely wonderful. Will listen again tomorrow after this prompt, thank you!

[Symphonic Addict]

+1 for the Nonet. This is what I would call top-notch C-T.

[Irons]

I have only heard one piece by him (Violin Concerto). But am I right in thinking that Coleridge-Taylor's most famous piece and the one that his reputation is built has not a single mention on this interesting thread, Hiawatha's Wedding Feast?

[Roasted Swan]

I have only heard one piece by him (Violin Concerto). But am I right in thinking that Coleridge-Taylor's most famous piece and the one that his reputation is built has not a single mention on this interesting thread, Hiawatha's Wedding Feast?

Yes of course - with "on away awake beloved" the big hit number.  The complete Hiawatha trilogy was recorded on Argo with a young Bryn Terfel in the lead.  It makes the most of its strengths and exposes its weaknesses.  In many ways for me that is the work that most clearly demonstrates C-T's essential Victorian traditionalness - its all a bit twee and moralising.

The oddest thing about Hiawatha is the annual "stagings" of it at the Royal Albert Hall in the 1920's overseen by Sir Malcolm Sargent years after C-T's death.  All these very middle class British suburbanites running around pretending to be Red Indians (in the parlance of the time....)

[DaveF]

who once said that Duke Ellington was America's greatest composer?

Percy Grainger made a list of the 10 greatest composers which implies just that - in no.1 position was Bach, but after that it gets a bit more original, with Delius at no.2 and Ellington at 3.  P.A. Grainger himself only comes in at a rather disappointing 9th.

[Karl Henning]