After Mahler comes Sibelius ...

[Mark]

I've long held a view that Sibelius 'rescued' the Symphony from the peaks of High Romanticism - best embodied for me in the symphonies of Mahler. What do I mean by 'rescued'? I mean that Sibelius took onboard what had gone before, but 'scaled down' his symphonies to levels which seem to me to be less 'hysterical' or 'overblown', but which nonetheless possess great colour and emotion. Indeed, I often find it refreshing to hear a Sibelius symphony after listening to two or three symphonies by Mahler: it has a kind of cleansing, 'sorbet' effect on my musical palate.

I'm not suggesting that my view is supported by facts, or that it is 'right' or 'true'. But I do wonder whether anyone else here feels the same or similar; and I'd particularly like to know what others who don't share my view (in whole or in part) think of it.

[longears]

My own view is similar, Mark.  Mahler embodies all the excesses of late Romanticism and of fin de siecle Vienna.  Sibelius is a breath of fresh air--or, if you like, a palate-cleansing shot of cold, clear water.

[Mark]

Sibelius is a breath of fresh air--or, if you like, a palate-cleansing shot of cold, clear water.

Yes, exactly. Whereas I sometimes feel like Mahler wanted to say everything in his symphonies, Sibelius seems to me to be able to say every bit as much ... even in his silences.

[Grazioso]

You should listen to the symphonies of Sibelius's Finnish contemporary Madetoja, which also feature a relative restraint and grace, in part from their Gallic influence.

[val]

I also agree. In his best works - the 3rd, 4th, 6th and 7th Symphonies, the Symphonic Poems - Sibelius is a very pure musician, never saying more than the essential. And he seems to have a natural perception of the structure of the Symphony that seems very healthy to me, after all Mahler's redundancies.

I am not saying that Mahler is a bad composer. In his best moments he is a very powerful creator: the 6th Symphony or Das Lied von der Erde, just to mention these two examples, are extraordinary. But in most works he seems never to know when to stop.

[Harry]

After I have listened to Mahler comes .... SILENCE.

Never have been able to think of anything that would appeal after Mahler's emotionally devastating music, so I usually listen to Mahler in the late evening.

Q

In a short time I will listen to two complete sets, the one with Inbal & Tennstedt.
Will be nice to compare. I like both sets enormously.
And it is indeed true, that it is very hard to listen to anything afterwards.

[Mark]

You should listen to the symphonies of Sibelius's Finnish contemporary Madetoja, which also feature a relative restraint and grace, in part from their Gallic influence.

Thanks for the tip - I enjoy exploring composers and works new to me.

... Mahler's emotionally devastating music ...

Very apt words indeed.

I also agree. In his best works - the 3rd, 4th, 6th and 7th Symphonies ...

Might I add his Second Symphony to that list? It brings me so much joy from the outset, and is, for me, a good example of my point. Everything is there, yet not 'everything' is there.

I am not saying that Mahler is a bad composer. But in most works he seems never to know when to stop.

With this I agree completely - it's how I've always seen Mahler's work. Look, for example, at his Seventh Symphony. I adore the work, but that final movement just keeps going, and going, and going ...

[longears]

After Mahler comes SILENCE

Never have been able to think of anything that would appeal after Mahler's emotionally devastating music, so I usually listen to Mahler in the late evening.

In this sense I agree.  But in this sense, after Sibelius comes silence, too.  And after Bruckner, after Beethoven, after Prokofiev, and so on.

[Mark]

In this sense I agree.  But in this sense, after Sibelius comes silence, too.  And after Bruckner, after Beethoven, after Prokofiev, and so on.

Absolutely. It's not for nothing that you never hear an encore after Beethoven's Ninth. What could it possibly add?

[longears]

In his best works - the 3rd, 4th, 6th and 7th Symphonies....

What?    No 5th?  Surely just an oversight...?

[longears]

Well, I'm usually exhausted by the end of a Mahler symphony...but that's partly due to their length!  (And, frankly, though I've come to enjoy Bruckner in the past couple of years, by the end of one of his symphonies I'm usually asleep!) 

[Lethevich]

It applies for me personally to Mahler in particular.
OK, the LvB 9th or the Bruckner 9th might be in the same category, but I am generally still in the mood to listen to something else after a Sibelius, Bruckner or LvB symphony.

Q

I am inclined to want to stop listening after a Mahler symphony due to the length and taxing complexity, with Sibelius it's because any other composer would be a let-down... This does require me to be in a certain state of mind at the time, I admit, and with surface listening, his music can seem unremarkable compared to other composers (perhaps like Vaughan Williams) in that it isn't hugely ambitious, and doesn't have the largest changes in dynamics or frequent use of the orchestra playing all-out, but there is something about Sibelius, and especially late Sibelius, which is very vital and completely unapproached by anybody else. And to do this with such an economy of means? Astonishing...

Edit: Actually, scratch the RVW comparison - RVW can be quite ambitious in symphonies like #6, plus his work is immediately melodically engaging.

[Bogey]

And then there are those like me Mark that just start and end with the 'sorbet'.  

[Mark]

Think I should just clarify my thread title: I'm not suggesting that immediately after listening to Mahler, I turn to Sibelius. I'm talking more about the progress of musical history - where Mahler is High Romanticism, Sibelius is, for me, Late Romanticism but with a sense of what was, at the time, modern in music.

[Mark]

... there is something about Sibelius, and especially late Sibelius, which is very vital and completely unapproached by anybody else. And to do this with such an economy of means? Astonishing...

Part of my point precisely. No doubled orchestra, off-stage horns or massive choirs in his symphonies. Just a kind of artistic restraint and a sense of knowing exactly how best to use a small pallete of musical colours to achieve something quite remarkable. The same goes for his tone poems, too.

[Grazioso]

Thanks for the tip - I enjoy exploring composers and works new to me.

For more info, try the Finnish Music Information Center, which is a goldmine: http://www.fimic.fi/

[Mark]

For more info, try the Finnish Music Information Center, which is a goldmine: http://www.fimic.fi/

Will do, thanks.

[Lethevich]

Part of my point precisely. No doubled orchestra, off-stage horns or massive choirs in his symphonies. Just a kind of artistic restraint and a sense of knowing exactly how best to use a small pallete of musical colours to achieve something quite remarkable. The same goes for his tone poems, too.

Yip. Stravinsky also achieved a similar stripping-back beginning at the same time, but it required a complete break with romanticism, even Schoenberg who considered himself a romantic (I believe) went much further from romanticism than Sibelius when exacting his changes. Sibelius just found an area in romanticism that had been overlooked, and mined it very effectively. As a result, despite being radical, it can remain very understandable and enjoyable to someone who likes romantic music in a way that the other composers I named can frequently not.

[Mark]

Is it possible that Sibelius' alleged synthesisia could've played any part in how his music was developed?

[Lethevich]

Is it possible that Sibelius' alleged synthesisia could've played any part in how his music was developed?

I don't know much about that - it is tempting to say that it may be why he was able to write such subtle and delicate passages in his orchestral music, but then again, a lunatic like Scriabin also experienced that disorder, and while his music was also extremely late romantic, it was entirely different. Both were extremely refined in their own way, though.