The Cost of Classical Music

[hopefullytrusting]

This is something I have always wondered, but how much does classical music cost?

Like, if I wanted to commission a piece, how much might that be?

Or, if one wanted a continuation of a series - see image (Saint-Lubin) - how much does it cost to produce a recording of classical music?

[CRCulver]

This is something I have always wondered, but how much does classical music cost?

Like, if I wanted to commission a piece, how much might that be?

It costs less than you think. You can occasionally find numbers in interviews, but I've seen big-name composers like Kaija Saariaho or Wolfgang Rihm produce new pieces for a number in the very low thousands of euro. The amount is usually in the reach of individual performers who want something new for their instrument (whether solo or with other musicians).

Or, if one wanted a continuation of a series - see image (Saint-Lubin) - how much does it cost to produce a recording of classical music?

This I don't know, but I suspect that sponsoring a multi-CD recording project costs more than commissioning a chamber piece. My reason for assuming this is that rarely does one hear about individuals sponsoring recording projects (Vincent Meyer sponsoring Ligeti's collected works 20–30 years ago is the only example I can readily think of); generally credits specify that private foundations or state arts funding paid for the recording.

[Brian]

I had an unusual opportunity to find out a few years ago while researching the history of the Dallas Symphony's new commissions. Unfortunately, nobody was forthcoming. Individual composers don't want to appear pompous (if successful) or undercut themselves (if just starting out), and the Symphony didn't mind if composers were unaware of what their colleagues were getting paid. I did get the sense, however, that a 10-minute orchestral concert opener would cost about what I consider a couple months' good-paying work, and a more substantial symphony or concerto might amount to something in the ballpark of the average American's year.

Another data point: in the 1950s, the Dallas Symphony women's league raised $1,000 to pay for a new Martinu symphony, No. 7, which was never delivered. Even inflation-adjusted, this is considered now to be insulting, a pittance. It was explained to me that until the 80s/90s, orchestras assumed that composers were all making their incomes teaching and publishing, and that they therefore didn't need real payment for performances. You were supposed to just have gratitude you were being performed at all.

A couple composers suggested to me that more "audience-friendly" trends in writing since 2000 or so have a direct connection to this economic element. When you were commissioned for a piece and paid like dirt, there was no external incentive to write something that would play to good reviews, be repeated, travel with the orchestra on tour, etc. Now there is much more "in it" for the composer who is well-liked.

[hopefullytrusting]

I had an unusual opportunity to find out a few years ago while researching the history of the Dallas Symphony's new commissions. Unfortunately, nobody was forthcoming. Individual composers don't want to appear pompous (if successful) or undercut themselves (if just starting out) [...]

Thanks for sharing. That was super informative.

[relm1]

This is something I have always wondered, but how much does classical music cost?

Like, if I wanted to commission a piece, how much might that be?

Or, if one wanted a continuation of a series - see image (Saint-Lubin) - how much does it cost to produce a recording of classical music?

Commissioning fees are also based on how famous the composer is.  Philip Glass and John Adams are very expensive.  Probably $100,000 for smaller works but there are just a handful of composers that can command that fee.  It also depends on genre.  A lengthy opera compared to a 5 minute concert opener.  You might want to read New Music Forum's Guide to Commissioning with details about typical commissioning costs.

https://newmusicusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Commissioning-Music-A-Basic-Guide.pdf

The rule of thumb I have on costs to record is expect $1,000 per finished music for a very low cost orchestra.  Here is how that works.

4 hour studio session with Mondovian Symphony (80 piece orchestra): $10,000
Manager, Conductor, studio, copyist, etc.: $3,000
Editing, mixing: $2,000

So for $15,000 you get about 15 minutes of music roughly on average.  So if you want to record a 60 minute album, it would be around two days with two sessions each day.  That would get 60 to 70 minutes of finished music and cost around $60,000 total.  Better/more famous orchestras go up but might be faster.  London Symphony is roughly $35,000 for the day but all associated fees increase (more expensive studios, etc.) but that gives you access to better fidelity, maybe a little bit faster orchestra (they can probably get 7 minutes recorded per hour).  Again, I'm talking averages.  You can get 10 minutes per hour of some type of music and 3 to 4 minutes per hour of very difficult music. 

I have cost breakdowns from several leading orchestras but the above summarizes it reasonably well in general.  Let me know if you want to see a real break down.  Modern commercial releases, usually the composer (or orchestra) pays upfront for the recording, the master, and the first lot of releases.  I forget the exact number but most albums do not make profit unless it's a famous composer/work.  If you've never been heard of but get released on Naxos or Toccata, you'll pay for the recording, master, maybe the first 100 or 1000 recordings (I just can't remember which) then split the profit with them after that threshold.  They put their distribution and marketing channels to use for you but aren't in the business model of taking risks, so the composer/orchestra/producer takes the risk.  This is the same model for other indie distributors.  Not the case for the big labels like Deutch Gramaphone, Chandos, etc.

[vandermolen]

A well-known British composer charged £5,000,to the educational establishment where I teach, for a work lasting 5 minutes.

[hopefullytrusting]

Commissioning fees are also based on how famous the composer is.  Philip Glass and John Adams are very expensive.  Probably $100,000 for smaller works but there are just a handful of composers that can command that fee.  It also depends on genre.  A lengthy opera compared to a 5 minute concert opener.  You might want to read New Music Forum's Guide to Commissioning with details about typical commissioning costs.

https://newmusicusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Commissioning-Music-A-Basic-Guide.pdf

The rule of thumb I have on costs to record is expect $1,000 per finished music for a very low cost orchestra.  Here is how that works.

4 hour studio session with Mondovian Symphony (80 piece orchestra): $10,000
Manager, Conductor, studio, copyist, etc.: $3,000
Editing, mixing: $2,000

So for $15,000 you get about 15 minutes of music roughly on average.  So if you want to record a 60 minute album, it would be around two days with two sessions each day.  That would get 60 to 70 minutes of finished music and cost around $60,000 total.  Better/more famous orchestras go up but might be faster.  London Symphony is roughly $35,000 for the day but all associated fees increase (more expensive studios, etc.) but that gives you access to better fidelity, maybe a little bit faster orchestra (they can probably get 7 minutes recorded per hour).  Again, I'm talking averages.  You can get 10 minutes per hour of some type of music and 3 to 4 minutes per hour of very difficult music. 

I have cost breakdowns from several leading orchestras but the above summarizes it reasonably well in general.  Let me know if you want to see a real break down.  Modern commercial releases, usually the composer (or orchestra) pays upfront for the recording, the master, and the first lot of releases.  I forget the exact number but most albums do not make profit unless it's a famous composer/work.  If you've never been heard of but get released on Naxos or Toccata, you'll pay for the recording, master, maybe the first 100 or 1000 recordings (I just can't remember which) then split the profit with them after that threshold.  They put their distribution and marketing channels to use for you but aren't in the business model of taking risks, so the composer/orchestra/producer takes the risk.  This is the same model for other indie distributors.  Not the case for the big labels like Deutch Gramaphone, Chandos, etc.

Damn, thanks for the insider look - those averages all make perfect sense to me.

It also explains to me why patronage is still so vital to the arts - creation is expensive.

If you're willing to share, I'd love to see a breakdown. The example above, (this may be a pipedream, but maybe not) is to get the complete works of Saint-Lubin recorded (I believe they are all either solo violin or duo aka with a piano), so no orchestra needed.

Thanks again for sharing all that information.

[Roasted Swan]

Damn, thanks for the insider look - those averages all make perfect sense to me.

It also explains to me why patronage is still so vital to the arts - creation is expensive.

If you're willing to share, I'd love to see a breakdown. The example above, (this may be a pipedream, but maybe not) is to get the complete works of Saint-Lubin recorded (I believe they are all either solo violin or duo aka with a piano), so no orchestra needed.

Thanks again for sharing all that information.

With an orchestra most Musician's Unions have a limit as to how much music can be recorded/appear on the final release per 3 hour session - so 15 minutes of 'new' material per session seems to be about right although I think in the USA they are (used to be!) quite a bit stricter - and within that session there had to be quite a specific number/length of tea breaks.  So you'd be aiming to record as much as you could over 3 hours but in effect probably less than 2.5 hours in "red light recording" time.  When you hear about works recorded in a 'single take' you would still have to pay the equivalent of the number of sessions it should have taken.  Quite how orchestras negotiate recordings of live concerts now I don't know.  Also, companies like Chandos/CPO use national radio orchestras because they get discounted session fees as part of the fee is deemed to be within the players' standard contract which the recording company then tops up....

[Herman]

You can tell what ballpark fees a composer is commanding if his or her works are commissioned by multiple orchestras, sharing the cost.

Jorh Widmann's orchestral works are sometimes commissioned by three different orchestras in different countries / continents.

You know, these works for large orchestra don#'t get written in a couple afternoons.

[hopefullytrusting]

With an orchestra most Musician's Unions have a limit as to how much music can be recorded/appear on the final release per 3 hour session - so 15 minutes of 'new' material per session seems to be about right although I think in the USA they are (used to be!) quite a bit stricter - and within that session there had to be quite a specific number/length of tea breaks.  So you'd be aiming to record as much as you could over 3 hours but in effect probably less than 2.5 hours in "red light recording" time.  When you hear about works recorded in a 'single take' you would still have to pay the equivalent of the number of sessions it should have taken.  Quite how orchestras negotiate recordings of live concerts now I don't know.  Also, companies like Chandos/CPO use national radio orchestras because they get discounted session fees as part of the fee is deemed to be within the players' standard contract which the recording company then tops up....

Very interesting.

See, I love to see this "underside" of classical music. In my field, very few people investigate the "business" of it, but it is a business.

Thanks again.

[relm1]

With an orchestra most Musician's Unions have a limit as to how much music can be recorded/appear on the final release per 3 hour session - so 15 minutes of 'new' material per session seems to be about right although I think in the USA they are (used to be!) quite a bit stricter - and within that session there had to be quite a specific number/length of tea breaks.  So you'd be aiming to record as much as you could over 3 hours but in effect probably less than 2.5 hours in "red light recording" time.  When you hear about works recorded in a 'single take' you would still have to pay the equivalent of the number of sessions it should have taken.  Quite how orchestras negotiate recordings of live concerts now I don't know.  Also, companies like Chandos/CPO use national radio orchestras because they get discounted session fees as part of the fee is deemed to be within the players' standard contract which the recording company then tops up....

This is true.  I don't think it's the case in Central Europe like Prague Symphony, Bratislava, etc.  But in the US too it's the case and I included that in my estimates per session.  The point is the better orchestra would be penalized because they're great at sight reading so in fact would be making less if it took them one hour to record 15 minutes than the other orchestra that needed 3 hours to record 15 minutes.  That's factored in.

[relm1]

You can tell what ballpark fees a composer is commanding if his or her works are commissioned by multiple orchestras, sharing the cost.

Jorh Widmann's orchestral works are sometimes commissioned by three different orchestras in different countries / continents.

You know, these works for large orchestra don#'t get written in a couple afternoons.

Not necessarily.  Consortiums are more and more common these days for a variety of reasons.  It allows for several world premieres which gives a marketing boost plus lets commissioners spread the risk and perhaps do more commissions at lower costs too.  EG: an orchestra that could only budget 1 commission per year can get 5 co-commissions per year and get better PR too.

[relm1]

This is the real cost for London Philharmonia orchestra so a premium orchestra for a day and a few comments below:

2x3 hour sessions x 80 Musicians £33,860
Porterage £500
Musician Doubling £300

ABBEY ROAD STUDIO 1 Setup, Recording £4,700
Pro Tools £1,000

RECORDING ENGINEER, Setup, Recording £1,000
CONDUCTOR ( 2 Sessions )  £1,200.
RECORDING MANAGER £800.

GRAND TOTAL £43,360

My comments:
1. This is only for recording, so you have to have all the mics and audio edited, mixed, and mastered so unless you can do this yourself, you need to hire an experienced audio engineer to do this.
2. Porterage means there is a cartage fee for heavy instruments such as a piano or timpani, etc.  When it becomes back breaking, they get an extra fee.
3. Famous soloists can be very expensive.  Yuja Wang for example can cost as much as the orchestra. 
4. In my first post, I mentioned 4 hour session but in the US/England 3 hour session is the block due to fatigue and unions.  You generally get as much music recorded in the 3 hour premium session as a 4 hour Eastern European session.  Different regions have a sound.  There is a US/English sound and an Eastern European sound, Russian sound etc.  It's very hard for them to switch sounds.  It's what they always sound like in that area so their "normal" sound is idiomatic to their location.  This kind of means don't hire Eastern European orchestra to swing or do something jazzy, it will sound foreign to them and you might lose a lot of time not on the notes being correct but on the feal.  Similarly American orchestra's might not have a Slavic feel, which the Eastern European orchestras could do in their sleep, etc.

[hopefullytrusting]

This is the real cost for London Philharmonia orchestra so a premium orchestra for a day:


2x3 hour sessions x 80 Musicians £33,860
Porterage £500
Musician Doubling £300

ABBEY ROAD STUDIO 1 Setup, Recording £4,700
Pro Tools £1,000

RECORDING ENGINEER, Setup, Recording £1,000
CONDUCTOR ( 2 Sessions )  £1,200.
RECORDING MANAGER £800.

GRAND TOTAL £43,360

Okay, that isn't too crazy given what you are getting.

Thanks for sharing.

As I said before, the business is very interesting. :

-1200, as I'll be conducting, lol.

[relm1]

Okay, that isn't too crazy given what you are getting.

Thanks for sharing.

As I said before, the business is very interesting. :

-1200, as I'll be conducting, lol.

Don't forget my consultation fee:   £1,200.

[hopefullytrusting]

Don't forget my consultation fee:  £1,200.

"Consultant"

[Roasted Swan]

Okay, that isn't too crazy given what you are getting.

Thanks for sharing.

As I said before, the business is very interesting. :

-1200, as I'll be conducting, lol.

Unless you are a trained conductor - really DON'T!!!!!!!!

[hopefullytrusting]

Unless you are a trained conductor - really DON'T!!!!!!!!

[relm1]

Unless you are a trained conductor - really DON'T!!!!!!!!

Wiser words have never been uttered. A great orchestra will take about 5 seconds to decide they'll ignore a mediocre conductor who doesn't bring something they need.  You also have to be efficient and be used to studio recording where everyone is mic'ed up and you hear a lot in your headset.

[Brian]

Not necessarily.  Consortiums are more and more common these days for a variety of reasons.  It allows for several world premieres which gives a marketing boost plus lets commissioners spread the risk and perhaps do more commissions at lower costs too.  EG: an orchestra that could only budget 1 commission per year can get 5 co-commissions per year and get better PR too.

From what I was told, there are two kinds of consortium co-commission. One is what I'd call organic: this orchestra wants to do a big new symphony from Jessie Montgomery or James MacMillan, so they call friends from other orchestras and assemble a group of them together to split the cost of the fee, share the glory of the premieres, and jump-start the work's entry into the repertoire. Example: the London Philharmonic wanted to commission a big new piece from Ukrainian composer Victoria Vita Poleva a few years ago, so they called the Dallas Symphony's programming director (an old friend), asked if we wanted to split the fee, and boom, it was done.

The other type is where a third party consortium assembles the funds and invites orchestras to participate. A recent example is Peter Boyer's Americana patriotic work "Rhapsody in Red, White, and Blue", which was planted with literally dozens of orchestras across the country by a foundation that paid for the work and disseminated it. (My DSO source said "that one was a disaster," but told me that there are other and more musically worthy examples.)