Author Topic: The Snowshoed Sibelius  (Read 337293 times)

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Offline Symphonic Addict

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2680 on: December 02, 2020, 04:05:08 PM »
Is there any recording of the Voces Intimae quartet on a string orchestra arrangement? When I rediscovered this work a while ago I was hooked by, so, why not to have a largere ensemble playing it.
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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2681 on: December 02, 2020, 04:18:12 PM »
Is there any recording of the Voces Intimae quartet on a string orchestra arrangement? When I rediscovered this work a while ago I was hooked by, so, why not to have a largere ensemble playing it.

If there is, no one knows about it. It’s definitely not in the Sibelius Edition on BIS and, as you know, I own every single one of these sets. So the answer is ‘no’. I will say that I wouldn’t care anything about hearing a string orchestra arrangement of it and the reason being is because I think it’s perfect the way it is. It’s kind of like this with Schoenberg’s Verklärte Nacht --- the string sextet version is magnificent. I’m not saying the arrangement for string orchestra is bad or that I don’t enjoy it, far from it --- I just think sometimes it’s best to leave things alone.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 04:20:41 PM by Mirror Image »
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Offline Symphonic Addict

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2682 on: December 02, 2020, 05:04:28 PM »
If there is, no one knows about it. It’s definitely not in the Sibelius Edition on BIS and, as you know, I own every single one of these sets. So the answer is ‘no’. I will say that I wouldn’t care anything about hearing a string orchestra arrangement of it and the reason being is because I think it’s perfect the way it is. It’s kind of like this with Schoenberg’s Verklärte Nacht --- the string sextet version is magnificent. I’m not saying the arrangement for string orchestra is bad or that I don’t enjoy it, far from it --- I just think sometimes it’s best to leave things alone.

Oh, I think it's a work that deserves more admirers, it encapsulates what Sibelius is in terms of a distinctive style, mastery in form, inner sentiments, his grounds and country's landscapes, etc. Andante festivo is a good example where both versions work pretty good IMO, nonetheless.
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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2683 on: December 02, 2020, 05:23:48 PM »
Oh, I think it's a work that deserves more admirers, it encapsulates what Sibelius is in terms of a distinctive style, mastery in form, inner sentiments, his grounds and country's landscapes, etc. Andante festivo is a good example where both versions work pretty good IMO, nonetheless.

I became familiar with Voces intimae back in ’09 or ’10. I was just starting to get really into his music and I wanted to hear something other than his symphonies or tone poems, so I pulled the trigger on this and there was no looking back:

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Offline Jo498

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2684 on: December 03, 2020, 12:33:34 AM »
It's not that common to make string orchestra arrangements of quartets. Of course Barshai did it for some of DSCH's and the Grand Fugue and some other late Beethoven and also late Schubert quartets have been played in such a way. But the latter are all more popular than Sibelius' Voces intimae and it is a somewhat dubious fashion anyway.
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Online Madiel

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2685 on: December 03, 2020, 02:15:29 AM »
Thanks to a huge spreadsheet of Sibelius recordings I stumbled across a few years ago... you're in luck.

(The BIS Sibelius Edition only has things that Sibelius himself did, not arrangements that others did.)

1. Orchestre d’Auvergne, conductor Roberto Forés Veses, record label Aparté, catalogue number AP 139. Released 2017 apparently. Clearly available as I found it on Amazon.



2. Helsinki Conservatory Chamber Orchestra (conductor Pekka Helasvuo)  has done a recording, though by the looks of it that's a self-released thing by the Helsinki Conservatory and might be hard to find. Whether it'd be the same arrangement or a different one, haven't a clue. EDIT: Actually it looks like it is the same arrangement, because I've found where the score of Helasvuo's arrangements is available for hire by orchestras, and they link to the Orchestre d'Auvergne recording. In other words, I think it's Helasvuo's arrangement in both cases and you're far more likely to hear it on the pictured release.

3. If you're interested, apparently one movement has been arranged for saxophone quartet...  :-X

 
« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 02:24:47 AM by Madiel »
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Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2686 on: December 03, 2020, 04:36:45 AM »
If there is, no one knows about it. It’s definitely not in the Sibelius Edition on BIS and, as you know, I own every single one of these sets. So the answer is ‘no’. I will say that I wouldn’t care anything about hearing a string orchestra arrangement of it and the reason being is because I think it’s perfect the way it is. It’s kind of like this with Schoenberg’s Verklärte Nacht --- the string sextet version is magnificent. I’m not saying the arrangement for string orchestra is bad or that I don’t enjoy it, far from it --- I just think sometimes it’s best to leave things alone.
You own that whole set?!  I'm green!  :o  ;)

Thanks to a huge spreadsheet of Sibelius recordings I stumbled across a few years ago... you're in luck.

(The BIS Sibelius Edition only has things that Sibelius himself did, not arrangements that others did.)

1. Orchestre d’Auvergne, conductor Roberto Forés Veses, record label Aparté, catalogue number AP 139. Released 2017 apparently. Clearly available as I found it on Amazon.



2. Helsinki Conservatory Chamber Orchestra (conductor Pekka Helasvuo)  has done a recording, though by the looks of it that's a self-released thing by the Helsinki Conservatory and might be hard to find. Whether it'd be the same arrangement or a different one, haven't a clue. EDIT: Actually it looks like it is the same arrangement, because I've found where the score of Helasvuo's arrangements is available for hire by orchestras, and they link to the Orchestre d'Auvergne recording. In other words, I think it's Helasvuo's arrangement in both cases and you're far more likely to hear it on the pictured release.

3. If you're interested, apparently one movement has been arranged for saxophone quartet...  :-X

 
May I ask where you found that spreadsheet?

PD

Online Madiel

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2687 on: December 03, 2020, 04:53:24 AM »
May I ask where you found that spreadsheet?

PD

You may ask, and then I have to try to remember... the clue is in 'stumbling'...

It was a Sibelius society of some kind. I'm reasonably sure it's (an earlier version of) what you can find on this page: https://sibeliusone.com/recordings/

EDIT: It's pretty darn exhaustive, down to listing every reissue of the same recording.
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Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2688 on: December 03, 2020, 04:57:56 AM »
You may ask, and then I have to try to remember... the clue is in 'stumbling'...

It was a Sibelius society of some kind. I'm reasonably sure it's (an earlier version of) what you can find on this page: https://sibeliusone.com/recordings/

EDIT: It's pretty darn exhaustive, down to listing every reissue of the same recording.
Ah!  I had forgotten about that website/society!  I do recall it now; I clicked on the "About" and recognized the picture of their get-together.   :)  I'll bookmark it.

Thank you!

PD

Offline Symphonic Addict

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2689 on: December 03, 2020, 03:00:16 PM »
Thanks to a huge spreadsheet of Sibelius recordings I stumbled across a few years ago... you're in luck.

(The BIS Sibelius Edition only has things that Sibelius himself did, not arrangements that others did.)

1. Orchestre d’Auvergne, conductor Roberto Forés Veses, record label Aparté, catalogue number AP 139. Released 2017 apparently. Clearly available as I found it on Amazon.



2. Helsinki Conservatory Chamber Orchestra (conductor Pekka Helasvuo)  has done a recording, though by the looks of it that's a self-released thing by the Helsinki Conservatory and might be hard to find. Whether it'd be the same arrangement or a different one, haven't a clue. EDIT: Actually it looks like it is the same arrangement, because I've found where the score of Helasvuo's arrangements is available for hire by orchestras, and they link to the Orchestre d'Auvergne recording. In other words, I think it's Helasvuo's arrangement in both cases and you're far more likely to hear it on the pictured release.

3. If you're interested, apparently one movement has been arranged for saxophone quartet...  :-X

Very helpful. Thank you.
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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2690 on: December 03, 2020, 04:50:06 PM »
You own that whole set?!  I'm green!  :o  ;)

Yes, indeed. :) I had acquired them over a two year period. Originally, I hadn’t planned on buying all of them, but then I started to want to hear other aspects of his oeuvre besides the orchestral, vocal works with orchestra and chamber music. It’s hugely impressive series and perhaps it’s more Sibelius than most people want, but I’m proud to own them all.
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Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2691 on: December 04, 2020, 05:21:53 AM »
Yes, indeed. :) I had acquired them over a two year period. Originally, I hadn’t planned on buying all of them, but then I started to want to hear other aspects of his oeuvre besides the orchestral, vocal works with orchestra and chamber music. It’s hugely impressive series and perhaps it’s more Sibelius than most people want, but I’m proud to own them all.
Did you buy them as individual CDs or as smaller box sets?

On LP (just referring to BIS here):  I have the Complete Orchestral Works--Vols. 1, 3, 5 and 10.  On CD:  Symphonies 6 & 7 with Vanska and also in here (purchased later):   The Essential Sibelius box set.

  It's a lovely set (for those who either might not to want to purchase the whole shebang or can't afford to).  The contents are listed here:  https://bis.se/label/bis/the-essential-sibelius  Just scroll down a bit (they also have music samples too).

At a CD sale, I encouraged a friend of mine to purchase the 6 & 7 one (as I loved it so much); I should have just given him mine!  I forgot that I had it also as part of that set!   ::)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2020, 05:23:50 AM by Pohjolas Daughter »

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2692 on: December 04, 2020, 10:36:42 AM »
Did you buy them as individual CDs or as smaller box sets?

On LP (just referring to BIS here):  I have the Complete Orchestral Works--Vols. 1, 3, 5 and 10.  On CD:  Symphonies 6 & 7 with Vanska and also in here (purchased later):   The Essential Sibelius box set.

  It's a lovely set (for those who either might not to want to purchase the whole shebang or can't afford to).  The contents are listed here:  https://bis.se/label/bis/the-essential-sibelius  Just scroll down a bit (they also have music samples too).

At a CD sale, I encouraged a friend of mine to purchase the 6 & 7 one (as I loved it so much); I should have just given him mine!  I forgot that I had it also as part of that set!   ::)

I bought them as box sets, but I do have few individual releases from years ago before these box sets starting coming out. That Essential Sibelius box set is one I owned, but ended up gifting to a friend since I started to collect the Sibelius Edition sets. It’s a great set of course, but I needed more than what it provided hence why I gave it away.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2020, 10:39:00 AM by Mirror Image »
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Online Herman

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2693 on: December 04, 2020, 10:49:25 AM »
Oh, I think it's a work that deserves more admirers, it encapsulates what Sibelius is in terms of a distinctive style, mastery in form, inner sentiments, his grounds and country's landscapes, etc. Andante festivo is a good example where both versions work pretty good IMO, nonetheless.

I have never quite understood why this procedure would bring a piece of chamber music more admirers. Just because there (potentially) larger audiences in symphony halls?

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2694 on: December 04, 2020, 10:52:53 AM »
I have never quite understood why this procedure would bring a piece of chamber music more admirers. Just because there (potentially) larger audiences in symphony halls?

Because there seems to be an assumption (on whoever you want to pin the assumption to is up to you) that concerts of orchestral music draw in larger crowds. As I’ve said already, Voces intimae doesn’t need a string orchestra arrangement. People who are into Sibelius will discover it sooner or later --- that is if the listener in question wants to explore the composer’s oeuvre in finer detail.
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Offline Jo498

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2695 on: December 04, 2020, 11:18:02 AM »
It apparently was a somewhat reasonable assumption in the 1930s/40s when Toscanini and Mitropoulos started doing this with some Beethoven pieces. There are still quite few people who don't care for chamber music and especially not for "screechy" string quartets.
Or maybe it was also conductors wanting to present these pieces because they liked them. Op.133 has been done by string orchestra's already in Brahms' time, I believe, and Mahler arranged and conducted op.95 (and Schubert's d minor).
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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2696 on: December 04, 2020, 11:23:22 AM »
It apparently was a somewhat reasonable assumption in the 1930s/40s when Toscanini and Mitropoulos started doing this with some Beethoven pieces. There are still quite few people who don't care for chamber music and especially not for "screechy" string quartets.
Or maybe it was also conductors wanting to present these pieces because they liked them. Op.133 has been done by string orchestra's already in Brahms' time, I believe, and Mahler arranged and conducted op.95 (and Schubert's d minor).

At this juncture in time, a string orchestra arrangement of a piece that isn’t well-known to begin with won’t bring a listener any more closer to the music, because a work’s success is solely dependent on the listener and their interests. If there isn’t an interest there, then more chances than not, it’ll remain in obscurity.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2020, 11:28:52 AM by Mirror Image »
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Offline Irons

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2697 on: December 04, 2020, 11:41:04 AM »
I have never quite understood why this procedure would bring a piece of chamber music more admirers. Just because there (potentially) larger audiences in symphony halls?

 A discussion that particularly appeals as I have taken delivery today of a recording of an arrangement for strings of a work I love, Elgar's String Quartet. I do not think it can be taken for granted that an arrangement for strings will always be inferior to the original chamber work. Done sympathetically it can in some cases be an improvement. Neville Marriner spotted something in the Walton String Quartet and suggested to the composer that the work would lend itself to a string arrangement. Walton set about the task with conviction and Sonata for Strings (I believe his only work for string orchestra) was completed. I hope I'm not committing sacrilege when I say I prefer Sonata for Strings to Walton's String Quartet.   
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Offline Irons

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2698 on: December 04, 2020, 11:46:34 AM »
It apparently was a somewhat reasonable assumption in the 1930s/40s when Toscanini and Mitropoulos started doing this with some Beethoven pieces. There are still quite few people who don't care for chamber music and especially not for "screechy" string quartets.
Or maybe it was also conductors wanting to present these pieces because they liked them. Op.133 has been done by string orchestra's already in Brahms' time, I believe, and Mahler arranged and conducted op.95 (and Schubert's d minor).

Didn't Barshai arrange a group of Shostakovich quartets for strings and record them?
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Offline Jo498

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #2699 on: December 04, 2020, 12:23:52 PM »
Yes, Barshai's arrangements and they are even called "chamber symphonies" have been recorded (and not only by Barshai). But this was certainly after Mahler and also after the 1930s ;) I tried to pinpoint when this started but it seems to have been also a consideration in ca. 1960s Soviet Union. Whatever the reasons, some musicians apparently found it worth the effort.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)