The Snowshoed Sibelius

[Biffo]

I've liked the Sarasate recordings which I've heard. The one below has an excellent 'En Saga' and 'Tapiola' as well as Symphony No.5:

The Saraste RCA box set arrived yesterday. So far I have only listened to a few short pieces, will probably start on the symphonies tomorrow.

The Horst Stein and Jussi Jalas albums turn up occasionally in my Amazon recommendations but I have only seen tepid (or worse) comments about them in this forum and have so far avoided them. Perhaps I should give Stein a try on Spotify.

[MusicTurner]

Over on eClassical, BIS founder Robert von Bahr relates that Sibelius' music for Masonic rituals almost never got recorded or included in the Complete Works. Finland's Freemasons were totally against it, being very secretive and unwilling to let the music be heard by non-Masons. Luckily the tenor soloist von Bahr had recruited for the album, Hannu Jurmu, was a Freemason himself, so Jurmu persuaded them to allow the album to be made.

Interesting comment, thank you.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Interesting comment, thank you.

I didn't know that either; quite interesting!

[Sergeant Rock]

+1 for the Horst Stein set.  His disc with a clearly inspired L'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande includes my favourite En Saga

That's one of my favorites too. Swift (16:15) and with prominent bass drum whacks. It's disappointing how so many recordings of En saga bury the drum. Of the thirteen versions I own, only Vänskä, Schmidt and Rouvali (besides Stein) give it its due.

Sarge

[DaveF]

It's disappointing how so many recordings of En saga bury the drum.

Sarge

A slight Sibelian oddity (he does it elsewhere too, I'm sure - 1st symphony, perhaps) is that the bass drum is directed to be played throughout with timpani sticks.  It's difficult to produce the same level of whack as with a good heavy bass drum stick.

[Sergeant Rock]

A slight Sibelian oddity (he does it elsewhere too, I'm sure - 1st symphony, perhaps) is that the bass drum is directed to be played throughout with timpani sticks.  It's difficult to produce the same level of whack as with a good heavy bass drum stick.

Ah, that may explain it. He must've wanted a softer blow. I still prefer Stein's explosions.

Sarge

[DaveF]

Ah, that may explain it. He must've wanted a softer blow. I still prefer Stein's explosions.

Sarge

The plot thickens somwhat, Sarge - I've just looked at the score and part (illegally, in fact, on IMSLP) and the first 2 bass drum entries in the part (first 3 in the score) are marked to be played with timpani sticks, and thereafter nothing - i.e. no loco or equivalent.  So does this mean the player should then revert to his usual sticks, or is it just lack of clarity in the bad old (handwritten) Breitkopf score?  No doubt there's a modern critical edition in which the question is resolved, but for older performances I can see why some conductors would feel justified in calling for proper sticks and proper whacks.  We played the piece a few years back in my local band, and much debate was had at the time, and... I can't remember what we did.  My son, then about 13, was playing bass drum - my recollection is that he made plenty of noise...

[Sergeant Rock]

We played the piece a few years back in my local band, and much debate was had at the time, and... I can't remember what we did.  My son, then about 13, was playing bass drum - my recollection is that he made plenty of noise...

As the good lord, although perhaps not Sibelius, intended 

Thank you for digging into the issue, perhaps a small issue but one that has vexed me since I noticed the difference among recordings.

Sarge

[Roasted Swan]

Ah, that may explain it. He must've wanted a softer blow. I still prefer Stein's explosions.

Sarge

No I don't think it was the dynamic/type of blow that dictated that marking.  The bass drum writing in En Saga is notable for the very long/extended rolls Sibelius asks for often at very quiet dynamics - at one point pppp marked "quasi niente"  To my ear these need to me nice "tight" rolls - something like you achieve on timpani easily but much harder on a bass drum using the standard bigger sticks.  So its a question of making the execution easier.  At the passage you mention the dynamic is ff with the instruction "crescendo possibile" towards the end.  I'm no percussionist but I wonder if some players swap to standard bass drum sticks for the last (preceeding) long roll to allow for a weighty sound through that crescendo as its literally the last thing the bass drum plays in the work.

Long and short of it - I'm like you - I want to hear the bass drum there - its such a muscular passage in the writing.......

[Sergeant Rock]

No I don't think it was the dynamic/type of blow that dictated that marking.  The bass drum writing in En Saga is notable for the very long/extended rolls Sibelius asks for often at very quiet dynamics - at one point pppp marked "quasi niente"  To my ear these need to me nice "tight" rolls - something like you achieve on timpani easily but much harder on a bass drum using the standard bigger sticks.  So its a question of making the execution easier.  At the passage you mention the dynamic is ff with the instruction "crescendo possibile" towards the end.  I'm no percussionist but I wonder if some players swap to standard bass drum sticks for the last (preceeding) long roll to allow for a weighty sound through that crescendo as its literally the last thing the bass drum plays in the work.

Long and short of it - I'm like you - I want to hear the bass drum there - its such a muscular passage in the writing.......

Your explanation makes a lot of sense, considering Sibelius' rolls and dynamic markings from pppp to ff. Thank you for your input.

Sarge

[vandermolen]

I'm really enjoying this newly arrived CD. The great discovery for me has been the life-affirming and inspiriting 'Vainon Virsi' (sorry, I can't find the Finnish accents on my keyboard). I was amazed to read that it was composed around the same time as 'Tapiola'. It was Sibelius's last cantata. It can also be found in the blue Sibelius Paavo Jarvi boxed set which I wrote about earlier:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llt-u8p0k_Q

[Biffo]

I'm really enjoying this newly arrived CD. The great discovery for me has been the life-affirming and inspiriting 'Vainon Virsi' (sorry, I can't find the Finnish accents on my keyboard). I was amazed to read that it was composed around the same time as 'Tapiola'. It was Sibelius's last cantata. It can also be found in the blue Sibelius Paavo Jarvi boxed set which I wrote about earlier:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llt-u8p0k_Q

I have had The Spirit of Nature (Vanska) and the blue Virgin Classics box (Paavo Järvi) for quite some time but have probably only listened to Väinön virsi once from each. It is indeed inspiriting (just listened to it now, Vanska) and I must listen to more Sibelius choral works once I have finished bingeing on Jukka-Pekka Saraste.

[Mirror Image]

I'm really enjoying this newly arrived CD. The great discovery for me has been the life-affirming and inspiriting 'Vainon Virsi' (sorry, I can't find the Finnish accents on my keyboard). I was amazed to read that it was composed around the same time as 'Tapiola'. It was Sibelius's last cantata. It can also be found in the blue Sibelius Paavo Jarvi boxed set which I wrote about earlier:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llt-u8p0k_Q

I'll have to give Väinämöinen's Song a listen as it was reissued in the Sibelius Edition Voice & Orchestra box set. As for my own personal Sibelian discoveries, I have to say that Origin of Fire (Tulen Synty), Op. 32 in both original and revised versions was an ear-opener for me. The vocal style reminded me of Shostakovich quite a bit I must say. If I had to pick a favorite version it would be the original in that there's a longer introduction that I helps set the mood just brilliantly. I usually prefer Sibelius revisions to his original thoughts, but here it's the reverse.

[vandermolen]

You're both much more adept with the Finnish accents than I am! Thanks for the interesting comments. I remember liking 'Origin of Fire' from an LP set years ago.
Here it is:

[Biffo]

You're both much more adept with the Finnish accents than I am! Thanks for the interesting comments. I remember liking 'Origin of Fire' from an LP set years ago.
Here it is:

It is not specifically a Finnish accent though no doubt it has a special significance in Finnish. It is the same character as the umlaut in German and the dieresis (or diaeresis) in English (and other languages)

I cheat by cut-and-pasting it from a document I have with selected foreign words though sometimes I don't bother. I think it is also somewhere on my keyboard but I can never find it.

[Mirror Image]

You're both much more adept with the Finnish accents than I am! Thanks for the interesting comments. I remember liking 'Origin of Fire' from an LP set years ago.
Here it is:

Ah yes, that is one of the recordings you sent me, Jeffrey. Interestingly enough, I ended up getting it twice when I bought the reissue of the Berglund Helsinki set on Warner Classics (w/ all the original cover art). FWIW, I'm not adept with Finnish at all as all I did was find the name of the piece via a Google search and copied/pasted the spelling here.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I don't remember how it works on Windows computers, but on a Mac one can choose various languages for ones keyboard.

Click on the little flag (on mine, it's in the upper right-hand side).  Then click on Open keyboard preferences.  At the bottom is a "+" sign.  Click on that. Pick whichever languages you wish to add.  To change your language, just click on the flag and click on the language you want to use.  Most of the time I don't bother though.  You can also pull up many different accent marks by briefly holding down a letter and then choosing which one you want.  For example "e":  è é ê ë ē ė ę . 

PD

[vandermolen]

Ah yes, that is one of the recordings you sent me, Jeffrey. Interestingly enough, I ended up getting it twice when I bought the reissue of the Berglund Helsinki set on Warner Classics (w/ all the original cover art). FWIW, I'm not adept with Finnish at all as all I did was find the name of the piece via a Google search and copied/pasted the spelling here.

Can't remember sending it to you John. I do like 'original cover art' sets which are the antithesis of many rather bland, although admittedly inexpensive, boxed set reissues (such as the Slatkin and Previn VW cycles).

[Mirror Image]

Can't remember sending it to you John. I do like 'original cover art' sets which are the antithesis of many rather bland, although admittedly inexpensive, boxed set reissues (such as the Slatkin and Previn VW cycles).

Yes, those RCA budget reissue sets are rather unattractive, but in the case of the RVW Previn sets, the fidelity had been greatly improved from this older issued set on RCA:

[vandermolen]

Yes, those RCA budget reissue sets are rather unattractive, but in the case of the RVW Previn sets, the fidelity had been greatly improved from this older issued set on RCA:

Oh, that's interesting John as the one you illustrate is the one that I have.