The Snowshoed Sibelius

Started by Dancing Divertimentian, April 16, 2007, 08:39:57 PM

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Leo K.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2021, 09:55:22 AM
There aren't a lot of chamber works from Sibelius that I'd call top-drawer (almost all of them were composed well before he found his compositional voice), but he did write one masterpiece in the genre and it is Voces intimae, Op. 56. This is an astonishing work and a must-hear, IMHO. All of the incidental music is worth hearing, but The Tempest, Op. 109, for me, is greatest of them all. The solo piano music consists of many great miniatures, but here are a few favorites: Kyllikki, Op. 41, Five Characteristic Impressions, Op. 103, Cinq morceaux, Opps. 75 & 85 and all of the Sonatinas. Also the songs are worth your time and here it doesn't even matter what I choose, it'll be great. Happy listening!

Thank you for those thoughts, I shall check around, thank you all!

Mirror Image

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 07, 2021, 12:41:01 AM
But there are also accounts that he had a version fair copied in the 1930s and the faint hope is that a copy is sitting in some library or storage somewhere.

If this was the case, I think we'd have heard the work by now. You mean to tell me that a library wouldn't notice a manuscript from the foremost Finnish composer of all-time lying around their building after roughly 90 years? I don't believe this to be the case. He burned the work, it's gone. There's nothing left with the exception of those little scraps that appeared in the BIS series.

relm1

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 07, 2021, 12:41:01 AM
But there are also accounts that he had a version fair copied in the 1930s and the faint hope is that a copy is sitting in some library or storage somewhere.

Yes this.  He burned his copy but would have had a copyist prepare early draft when he thought it might be near performance ready.  So other people would have touched it and sometimes they could have archival copies in storage bins without realizing.  When a composer dies, universities or publishers frequently get boxes of uncatalogued sketches and manuscripts and they sometimes contain significant works like Shostakovich's Orango opera that was discovered in 2004 and premiered in 2015.  Part of the challenge is to what extant are the bits and pieces of these sketches ready for performance versus just interesting to musicologists and researchers.  In Mahler 10, there is quite a bit of unused material that is 100% Mahler but aborted.  If that was performed it would feel very rough and amateur at best.  I'm talking about his sketches, not the short score (which is essentially the sketches then fully composed, and his final work, the full score which he died after only completing the first and second movement).  So in sketches you might find half baked ideas, alternative thoughts (like an idea and a revised version or two of the same idea as alternates and the composer hadn't yet decided which he was going to use), music that might not be flushed out such as having place holder like block chords of what would later become counterpoint with moving lines, etc.  The composer would know they'll worry about this later but in the sketch all we'll get is that snapshot.  I believe this is the case of what we have with what is being called the fragments of Symphony No. 8.  I think there is nothing tying it to no. 8 or if it truly was no. 8, it has practically no resemblance of what would have become of it any more than randomly pulling out a "fragment" or passage from Mahler's sketch of 10.  Sure from time to time there will be something that makes to the final completed vision but most gets reshaped till it's unrecognizable or discarded. 

Wanderer

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 07, 2021, 12:41:01 AM
But there are also accounts that he had a version fair copied in the 1930s and the faint hope is that a copy is sitting in some library or storage somewhere.

That's what I'm hoping for. After all, there's the precedent of Berlioz's Messe solennelle.

Brian

Some more examples after Googling: the original manuscript of a Mozart sonata was discovered in 2014 (somewhat different from the "known" version), in 2018 an abandoned house in Chicago was found to contain a bunch of full-sized full-length scores by African-American composer Florence Price, and the original score of Malcolm Arnold's Seventh Symphony was "discovered" on eBay. In World War II, the Red Army stole an entire library of music from Berlin, and when it was returned in 2002, it was found to contain all kinds of stuff, including a "new" Vivaldi opera about Montezuma.

Madiel

#2865
Quote from: relm1 on May 07, 2021, 06:11:20 AM
Yes this.  He burned his copy but would have had a copyist prepare early draft when he thought it might be near performance ready.  So other people would have touched it and sometimes they could have archival copies in storage bins without realizing.  When a composer dies, universities or publishers frequently get boxes of uncatalogued sketches and manuscripts and they sometimes contain significant works like Shostakovich's Orango opera that was discovered in 2004 and premiered in 2015.  Part of the challenge is to what extant are the bits and pieces of these sketches ready for performance versus just interesting to musicologists and researchers.  In Mahler 10, there is quite a bit of unused material that is 100% Mahler but aborted.  If that was performed it would feel very rough and amateur at best.  I'm talking about his sketches, not the short score (which is essentially the sketches then fully composed, and his final work, the full score which he died after only completing the first and second movement).  So in sketches you might find half baked ideas, alternative thoughts (like an idea and a revised version or two of the same idea as alternates and the composer hadn't yet decided which he was going to use), music that might not be flushed out such as having place holder like block chords of what would later become counterpoint with moving lines, etc.  The composer would know they'll worry about this later but in the sketch all we'll get is that snapshot.  I believe this is the case of what we have with what is being called the fragments of Symphony No. 8.  I think there is nothing tying it to no. 8 or if it truly was no. 8, it has practically no resemblance of what would have become of it any more than randomly pulling out a "fragment" or passage from Mahler's sketch of 10.  Sure from time to time there will be something that makes to the final completed vision but most gets reshaped till it's unrecognizable or discarded.

You don't seem to realise that the first thing you're agreeing to and the thing you say later in this post are pretty much opposite. You're simultaneously rejecting the small amounts of Symphony No.8 material we've been told exist, and yet presenting as an alternative that there is a much larger chunk of Symphony No.8 material sitting out there somewhere.

This is wishful thinking at its finest. I'm not saying that there couldn't possibly be further material out there to be discovered, but whether or not it exists is not remotely affected by whether or not listeners are satisfied with the known material. Accounts of a version being copied in the 1930s are evidence. A listener's feelings about sketches are not.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Madiel

Quote from: Brian on May 07, 2021, 06:28:54 AM
Some more examples after Googling: the original manuscript of a Mozart sonata was discovered in 2014 (somewhat different from the "known" version), in 2018 an abandoned house in Chicago was found to contain a bunch of full-sized full-length scores by African-American composer Florence Price, and the original score of Malcolm Arnold's Seventh Symphony was "discovered" on eBay. In World War II, the Red Army stole an entire library of music from Berlin, and when it was returned in 2002, it was found to contain all kinds of stuff, including a "new" Vivaldi opera about Montezuma.

Some of Dvorak's early works (I forget which ones right now) survived because other people had copies that Dvorak had forgotten about.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Brian

Quote from: Madiel on May 07, 2021, 07:31:43 AM
Some of Dvorak's early works (I forget which ones right now) survived because other people had copies that Dvorak had forgotten about.
Definitely the first symphony, I believe.

MusicTurner

#2868
Stravinsky's big 'Chant Funebre' was only rediscovered in 2015. Some Rozycki manuscripts, including a good part of a Violin Concerto, were found buried due to WW II events, in a suitcase in his former garden, by construction workers ...

relm1

Quote from: Madiel on May 07, 2021, 07:25:26 AM
You don't seem to realise that the first thing you're agreeing to and the thing you say later in this post are pretty much opposite. You're simultaneously rejecting the small amounts of Symphony No.8 material we've been told exist, and yet presenting as an alternative that there is a much larger chunk of Symphony No.8 material sitting out there somewhere.

This is wishful thinking at its finest. I'm not saying that there couldn't possibly be further material out there to be discovered, but whether or not it exists is not remotely affected by whether or not listeners are satisfied with the known material. Accounts of a version being copied in the 1930s are evidence. A listener's feelings about sketches are not.

Hmm, very odd post.  I'm completely aware of what I said.  I've seen boxes of materials I've seen from dead composers that have ended up in the hands of people who don't know what to make of it and some of it is from significant composers..  What are you saying?   

Madiel

#2870
Quote from: relm1 on May 07, 2021, 05:22:50 PM
Hmm, very odd post.  I'm completely aware of what I said.  I've seen boxes of materials I've seen from dead composers that have ended up in the hands of people who don't know what to make of it and some of it is from significant composers..  What are you saying?

I'm saying that your beliefs (on no actual evidence) that the sketches labelled as Symphony No.8 are not truly Symphony No.8 have precisely no bearing on whether or not a copy of some other Symphony No.8 material exists, despite your attempt to link the 2 issues. The fact that you find the existing material unsatisfactory does nothing to increase the probability that other material you would find satisfactory is going to be found.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Mirror Image

#2871
Quote from: Madiel on May 07, 2021, 06:40:19 PM
I'm saying that your beliefs (on no actual evidence) that the sketches labelled as Symphony No.8 are not truly Symphony No.8 have precisely no bearing on whether or not a copy of some other Symphony No.8 material exists, despite your attempt to link the 2 issues. The fact that you find the existing material unsatisfactory does nothing to increase the probability that other material you would find satisfactory is going to be found.

I personally find it a waste of time in wondering what could've been and instead find solace in what has been (I hope I worded this correctly). I have zero interest in hearing Sibelius' 8th symphony (if it turns up and I'm alive to hear it). The reason I'm not is because the composer himself didn't make it a part of his oeuvre. What we do have are seven extraordinary symphonies that he was satisfied enough with to allow us to hear. The whole mystique surrounding the 8th is something I just don't understand and what I find truly confounding is the music that does exist that never gets mentioned or talked about like The Origin of Fire, for example, which is also readily available and has been recorded several times, is completely unknown to so many listeners, but these same listeners are more curious about a symphony that was burned to ash by the composer. It'd be nice if people focused on what does exist and has been recorded instead of making speculative guesses as to whether the 8th will be found or not. At this juncture, I've heard more Sibelius than most people have and I'm thankful for his contributions in all the genres he chose to compose in. Not to beat a dead horse, but there are swarths of songs and solo piano music that many people have no idea existed because they're so hellbent on hearing every orchestral scrap he composed.

Ganondorf

#2872
Quote from: relm1 on May 04, 2021, 05:56:42 AM
I love the songs too.  Sibelius is just one of those composers that I've not heard anything I dislike.  It's immediately unique and casts a spell on me whatever it is.  I love the orchestral songs but the chamber songs are great too.  Some of the orchestral songs are borderline tone poems, quite evocative and theatrical.

I really like Sibelius's Five Christmas Songs op. 1. And when it comes to singing, of course there is also magnificent tone poem-song Luonnotar and also cantata Tulen Synty and improvisation Snöfrid. Didn't Tempest have singing also?

relm1

#2873
Quote from: Madiel on May 07, 2021, 06:40:19 PM
I'm saying that your beliefs (on no actual evidence) that the sketches labelled as Symphony No.8 are not truly Symphony No.8 have precisely no bearing on whether or not a copy of some other Symphony No.8 material exists, despite your attempt to link the 2 issues. The fact that you find the existing material unsatisfactory does nothing to increase the probability that other material you would find satisfactory is going to be found.

Isn't the burden on you to link the two?  Show how the sketches are part of the Symphony No. 8.  It's not up to me to show how they don't.  That's a stupid argument.  A logical fallacy.  You are making an assertion that they are linked so demonstrate the link.  Musicologists will then shoot it down.    If it says "Symphony No. 8" you have a more persuasive link.  In this case, it does not at all say that.  It's just collections of sketches from his last period. 

Madiel

#2874
Quote from: relm1 on May 08, 2021, 03:52:58 PM
Isn't the burden on you to link the two?  Show how the sketches are part of the Symphony No. 8.  It's not up to me to show how they don't.  That's a stupid argument.  A logical fallacy.  You are making an assertion that they are linked so demonstrate the link.  Musicologists will then shoot it down.    If it says "Symphony No. 8" you have a more persuasive link.  In this case, it does not at all say that.  It's just collections of sketches from his last period.

That isn't what I said and I made no such assertion. Read again. Whether they're in truth part of Sibelius' plan for the symphonies or not is entirely irrelevant, the point is that your desire for something better in no way increases the chances of something else existing to be found.

Hell's bells this shouldn't be difficult, but at least twice this week you seem to have indicated your belief in magical thinking where the world is as you wish it to be. Sibelius' true 8th is out there somewhere just because you want it to be so. Scriabin is an orchestral composer who just happened to have written over 2/3 of his music on the piano, because you want him to be an orchestral composer. Rather than expressing that you personally like Scriabin's orchestral music, you try to reshape reality.

I'm well aware that musicologists have different views as to whether or not the sketches from the late period are Symphony No.8 or not. You seem to be under the wild misapprehension that I have any independent opinion on the subject beyond the views expressed by musicologists, when I've neither seen nor heard the sketches in question, never mind not being a professional musicologist. The point here is that YOU have an opinion on the subject which so far seems to be based not on any kind of musicological expertise but on whether you like the sketches or not. If you want to talk about stupid arguments and logical fallacies, mister, look no further.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

relm1

#2875
Quote from: Madiel on May 09, 2021, 01:15:32 AM
That isn't what I said and I made no such assertion. Read again. Whether they're in truth part of Sibelius' plan for the symphonies or not is entirely irrelevant, the point is that your desire for something better in no way increases the chances of something else existing to be found.

Hell's bells this shouldn't be difficult, but at least twice this week you seem to have indicated your belief in magical thinking where the world is as you wish it to be. Sibelius' true 8th is out there somewhere just because you want it to be so. Scriabin is an orchestral composer who just happened to have written over 2/3 of his music on the piano, because you want him to be an orchestral composer. Rather than expressing that you personally like Scriabin's orchestral music, you try to reshape reality.

I'm well aware that musicologists have different views as to whether or not the sketches from the late period are Symphony No.8 or not. You seem to be under the wild misapprehension that I have any independent opinion on the subject beyond the views expressed by musicologists, when I've neither seen nor heard the sketches in question, never mind not being a professional musicologist. The point here is that YOU have an opinion on the subject which so far seems to be based not on any kind of musicological expertise but on whether you like the sketches or not. If you want to talk about stupid arguments and logical fallacies, mister, look no further.

What an odd and hostile post, based on what little of it was worth reading.  Ok, tough guy, next time I have an opinion, I'll make sure you are ok with it before I post it.  Switch to decaf mate.

Madiel

#2876
Hostile? Whereas telling me I was making a stupid argument wasn't hostile I suppose.

You don't read and you won't learn. You are entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts, and that's the whole problem.

Over it. Going to go listen to some actual existing Sibelius.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

bhodges

OK, gents, it's clear that there's no love lost between the two of you, so please halt the rancor and return to listening to music (whether Sibelius or anything else).

Thank you.

--Bruce

bhodges

One of my favorite Sibelius songs is "En slanda" ("A dragonfly"), which I first heard live by Karita Mattila, and then on her recording with pianist Ilmo Ranta. But stumbled across this version, arranged for full orchestra, with Soile Isokoski, conductor Leif Segerstam, and the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra. Though I might prefer the intimacy of the piano version, Isokoski sounds glorious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtMBmnug50g

--Bruce

Mirror Image

Quote from: Brewski on May 12, 2021, 04:39:52 AM
One of my favorite Sibelius songs is "En slanda" ("A dragonfly"), which I first heard live by Karita Mattila, and then on her recording with pianist Ilmo Ranta. But stumbled across this version, arranged for full orchestra, with Soile Isokoski, conductor Leif Segerstam, and the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra. Though I might prefer the intimacy of the piano version, Isokoski sounds glorious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtMBmnug50g

--Bruce

I'll have to check this song out, Bruce. I'm sure I've heard it, but it wouldn't hurt to revisit it.