Author Topic: The Snowshoed Sibelius  (Read 392958 times)

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Offline Symphonic Addict

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3080 on: October 05, 2021, 05:15:03 PM »
How sibelian you consider Vaughan Williams was and viceversa? I mean, how Vaughan-Williamsist was Sibelius and how much of an influence was a composer of each other.

Who was a greater composer? How original?
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Offline relm1

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3081 on: October 05, 2021, 05:41:11 PM »
How sibelian you consider Vaughan Williams was and viceversa? I mean, how Vaughan-Williamsist was Sibelius and how much of an influence was a composer of each other.

Who was a greater composer? How original?

I love them both probably equally so I would say they are equal.  I've never heard a work of either of them that I didn't love and some of their works have moved me deeply.  They both seem to have a deep nostalgia and melancholy and just beautiful lyricism and depth of feeling.   Plus weren't they fans of each other?  Did RVW dedicate one of his symphonies to JS and vice versa?

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3082 on: October 05, 2021, 05:44:05 PM »
How sibelian you consider Vaughan Williams was and viceversa? I mean, how Vaughan-Williamsist was Sibelius and how much of an influence was a composer of each other.

Who was a greater composer? How original?

Too many questions. ;D I'm not sure who was greater, because I think this kind of thinking pits the two composers against each other as if it was some kind of tennis match. I love both composers, but I felt that my affection for Sibelius was much harder earned as I found him quite difficult to understand earlier on whereas RVW appealed to me instantly without any sense of struggle on my part. Sibelius earns a special place in my heart as he's one of the only composers who has brought a tear to my eye (the other two being Mahler and Shostakovich). I think for a composer to have this kind of breakthrough to the listener means a special bond was formed. RVW is an incredible composer, but I don't listen to him much these days and my Sibelius listening has increased rapidly over the years. I do need to get back to RVW as I believe there is much of his music that warrants attention.
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Offline Symphonic Addict

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3083 on: October 05, 2021, 06:52:39 PM »
I love them both probably equally so I would say they are equal.  I've never heard a work of either of them that I didn't love and some of their works have moved me deeply.  They both seem to have a deep nostalgia and melancholy and just beautiful lyricism and depth of feeling.   Plus weren't they fans of each other?  Did RVW dedicate one of his symphonies to JS and vice versa?

Yes, the English dedicated his 5th to the Finn, but Sibelius did not the other way around with any other of his symphonies or works (not sure), but it doesn't matter. Sibelius did dedicate his 3rd to Granville Bantock, curiously. And Arnold Bax also dedicated his 5th to the great Finn bard. What an interesting link of composers. They definitely share a strong atmospheric, bucolic, lyric quality to the music.
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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3084 on: October 05, 2021, 06:57:36 PM »
Too many questions. ;D I'm not sure who was greater, because I think this kind of thinking pits the two composers against each other as if it was some kind of tennis match. I love both composers, but I felt that my affection for Sibelius was much harder earned as I found him quite difficult to understand earlier on whereas RVW appealed to me instantly without any sense of struggle on my part. Sibelius earns a special place in my heart as he's one of the only composers who has brought a tear to my eye (the other two being Mahler and Shostakovich). I think for a composer to have this kind of breakthrough to the listener means a special bond was formed. RVW is an incredible composer, but I don't listen to him much these days and my Sibelius listening has increased rapidly over the years. I do need to get back to RVW as I believe there is much of his music that warrants attention.

There is a resemblance with what I think of in my own experience. I can't pigeonhole what exactly is about why I didn't "digest" Sibelius at my very first exposition to classical music, but I love both almost for equal quantity and affection.

Pettersson didn't? Or Debussy? Ravel? Enescu?
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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3085 on: October 05, 2021, 07:06:58 PM »
There is a resemblance with what I think of in my own experience. I can't pigeonhole what exactly is about why I didn't "digest" Sibelius at my very first exposition to classical music, but I love both almost for equal quantity and affection.

Pettersson didn't? Or Debussy? Ravel? Enescu?

Nope. The only composers that have brought tears to my eyes are the afore mentioned ones.
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Offline Irons

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3086 on: October 06, 2021, 02:23:54 AM »
Yes, the English dedicated his 5th to the Finn, but Sibelius did not the other way around with any other of his symphonies or works (not sure), but it doesn't matter. Sibelius did dedicate his 3rd to Granville Bantock, curiously. And Arnold Bax also dedicated his 5th to the great Finn bard. What an interesting link of composers. They definitely share a strong atmospheric, bucolic, lyric quality to the music.

Most interesting that the one English composer Sibelius thought worth a dedication is Bantock.

Talking of Bax - which here is not the right place, is Bax's dedications. I will list on the appropriate thread if anyone interested.

 
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Offline Roasted Swan

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3087 on: October 06, 2021, 02:45:24 AM »
Most interesting that the one English composer Sibelius thought worth a dedication is Bantock.

Talking of Bax - which here is not the right place, is Bax's dedications. I will list on the appropriate thread if anyone interested.

Yes absolutely re dedications but of course Sibelius was acknowledging Bantock's work as a conductor promoting Sibelius in the UK rather than any musical affinity in their compositional styles.  The same with the Bax dedications - in effect thanking the dedicatees for their support over the years although I think the Ireland dedication is more a gesture of friendship perhaps.....

Offline vandermolen

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3088 on: October 06, 2021, 04:10:15 AM »
How sibelian you consider Vaughan Williams was and viceversa? I mean, how Vaughan-Williamsist was Sibelius and how much of an influence was a composer of each other.

Who was a greater composer? How original?
I think that VW was much more influenced by Sibelius than the other way round. VW dedicated his 5th Symphony to Sibelius - who sent a polite reply thanking VW for the dedication. I suspect that VW excised the best section (IMO) of 'A London Symphony' (at the end) under the influence of Sibelius who was at the height of his fame in England in the 1930s. Personally I think that final revision was a mistake as whatever the symphony gained in concision it lost in poetic atmosphere. I think that Sibelius was the greater composer but VW remains my favourite. I don't think that VW composed anything as great or original (maybe his 6th Symphony) as Tapiola or the 4th Symphony of Sibelius.
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Offline Roasted Swan

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3089 on: October 06, 2021, 05:01:49 AM »
"Greatness" in music makes me twitch!  Personally I find it almost completely irrelevant to my own listening experience.  The music I enjoy listening to most is that which touches and moves me the most - whether the person who wrote it or the music itself influenced the history of music (which I guess is what greatness in this context means...?) is of no consequence to me in the moment of listening.  Heretically I listen to almost no Mozart but 100% he is a great composer.

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3090 on: October 06, 2021, 07:28:54 AM »
I don't think that VW composed anything as great or original (maybe his 6th Symphony) as Tapiola or the 4th Symphony of Sibelius.

True but RVW influenced generations of composers touching everything from neoromantic orchestral music to film scores.

Offline vandermolen

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3091 on: October 06, 2021, 08:46:59 AM »
True but RVW influenced generations of composers touching everything from neoromantic orchestral music to film scores.
Yes, I very much agree. I think that VW was a great composer.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Symphonic Addict

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3092 on: October 07, 2021, 03:42:44 PM »
I think that VW was much more influenced by Sibelius than the other way round. VW dedicated his 5th Symphony to Sibelius - who sent a polite reply thanking VW for the dedication. I suspect that VW excised the best section (IMO) of 'A London Symphony' (at the end) under the influence of Sibelius who was at the height of his fame in England in the 1930s. Personally I think that final revision was a mistake as whatever the symphony gained in concision it lost in poetic atmosphere. I think that Sibelius was the greater composer but VW remains my favourite. I don't think that VW composed anything as great or original (maybe his 6th Symphony) as Tapiola or the 4th Symphony of Sibelius.

Interesting point of view, Jeffrey. I think both composers were original and great in their own ways, and I couldn't live without any of them.
Give us something else; give us something new; for Heaven's sake give us something bad, so long as we feel we are alive and active and not just passive admirers of tradition!

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Offline vandermolen

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3093 on: October 07, 2021, 09:48:58 PM »
Interesting point of view, Jeffrey. I think both composers were original and great in their own ways, and I couldn't live without any of them.
Same here Cesar. VW's 5th Symphony was clearly influenced by Sibelius (its dedicatee) and I think that Moeran's Symphony (one of my favourite symphonies) shows the influence even more. I can't detect any influence of VW in Sibelius's own music. This is not to take anything away from VW's own greatness and, of course, unlike Sibelius, he was able to produce wonderful scores, like the 9th Symphony, into his 80s whereas Sibelius stopped composing decades earlier.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 09:52:15 PM by vandermolen »
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3094 on: November 12, 2021, 05:09:01 PM »
Does anyone know this recording of Kullervo? If it is the Rasilainen that conducted Atterberg, I want to hear it!

Give us something else; give us something new; for Heaven's sake give us something bad, so long as we feel we are alive and active and not just passive admirers of tradition!

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3095 on: November 12, 2021, 05:14:03 PM »
Same here Cesar. VW's 5th Symphony was clearly influenced by Sibelius (its dedicatee) and I think that Moeran's Symphony (one of my favourite symphonies) shows the influence even more. I can't detect any influence of VW in Sibelius's own music. This is not to take anything away from VW's own greatness and, of course, unlike Sibelius, he was able to produce wonderful scores, like the 9th Symphony, into his 80s whereas Sibelius stopped composing decades earlier.

Very true what you say, Jeffrey, and I quite agree about what the bolded text claims. Sibelius is more independent melodically, rhythmically and harmonically. One composer was very active until very late of his life whilst the another decided stop composing significantly in a relatively "lucid" moment of his lifetime.
Give us something else; give us something new; for Heaven's sake give us something bad, so long as we feel we are alive and active and not just passive admirers of tradition!

Carl Nielsen

Offline Roasted Swan

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3096 on: November 13, 2021, 12:16:46 AM »
Does anyone know this recording of Kullervo? If it is the Rasilainen that conducted Atterberg, I want to hear it!



Pretty sure it is.... but never heard it and don't remember reading any opinions about it either.  There is such a glut of Kullervo's now, I had to draw the line somewhere and I think that was it.  If it ever turns up in JPC's bargain bin for €2.99 I'll probably buy it!

Offline vandermolen

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3097 on: November 13, 2021, 12:52:00 AM »
Does anyone know this recording of Kullervo? If it is the Rasilainen that conducted Atterberg, I want to hear it!


Yes, I have that CD ( ::))
I seem to recall reading some fairly indifferent reviews but I enjoyed the performance Cesar.

Review:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/jan07/Sibelius_Kullervo_7771962.htm
« Last Edit: November 13, 2021, 12:53:33 AM by vandermolen »
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: The Snowshoed Sibelius
« Reply #3098 on: November 13, 2021, 06:42:43 AM »
Does anyone know this recording of Kullervo? If it is the Rasilainen that conducted Atterberg, I want to hear it!



Like Roasted Swan, I never got around to this one. Considering how many great ones there are, it seemed to be the bottom of my list. I don't even believe I own it (now that I'm thinking about it).
« Last Edit: November 13, 2021, 08:06:51 PM by Mirror Image »
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Offline Brewski

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Minnesota Orchestra: All-Sibelius for New Year's Eve
« Reply #3099 on: November 13, 2021, 01:09:02 PM »
On Friday, Dec. 31 at 8:30pm (CST), the Minnesota Orchestra will mark New Year's Eve with a rather unusual all-Sibelius concert, which will be livestreamed. I don't recall ever hearing Autumn Evening or Hertig Magnus, and Luonnotar doesn't show up on programs that often, either (at least, in the United States). And I wish they were ending with No. 7, but popular demand probably dictates ending with No. 2. Never mind, I'll take it.  8)

Minnesota Orchestra
Osmo Vänskä, conductor
Helena Juntunen, soprano

Symphony No. 7
Autumn Evening
Hertig Magnus
Luonnotar
(Intermission)
Symphony No. 2

https://www.minnesotaorchestra.org/tickets/calendar/2122/new-years-celebration/

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