The Snowshoed Sibelius

Started by Dancing Divertimentian, April 16, 2007, 08:39:57 PM

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Brian

Well, this update brought me great joy, on top of the pleasure of seeing Elgarian on these pages again. Like Madiel, I agree that it makes sense. And there is something to the idea that some works of art, we just aren't ready for the first or second time, but then we reach a stage of life or frame of mind where we are ready. And maybe we have no idea what changed. I can't help thinking of some of those novels they made us read in school, even though schoolchildren are completely the wrong audience for them. A 16-year-old will never understand what Thomas Hardy was on about. But come back a few decades later, and the door has opened up.

I think there was some great commentator somewhere who said that the Seventh was structured like a work exploring and learning itself from the inside.

Very excited that we can all celebrate by hitting the Minnesota Orchestra's website and catching up on last night's concert!

Another, more commercial form of New Year's Sibelebration might be the eClassical "Daily Deal," 50% off download of Symphony No. 6 + Pelleas et Melisande with Neeme Jarvi and the Gothenburg Symphony. January 1st only. An hour of music for US $4.12.

The following comment from BIS founder Robert von Bahr is interesting:

"Another instalment of Neeme Järvi's ground-breaking Sibelius cycle with the Gothenburg SO. Ground-breaking, because this was the very first time that an orchestra agreed to - against the Union rules - record on royalties alone. It took more than a year of very hard negotiations for me to land this fish, and it turned out to be a pivotal point in the history of recordings. With this precedence, more and more orchestras built in recordings in their deals with the musicians' unions, and I think it is safe to say that, without my initiative, the favourable situation with lots of orchestral recordings for you, the listeners, would not have existed. Arguably this may be the biggest thing that BIS has accomplished to date."

Roasted Swan

Quote from: Brian on January 01, 2022, 06:53:55 AM
Well, this update brought me great joy, on top of the pleasure of seeing Elgarian on these pages again. Like Madiel, I agree that it makes sense. And there is something to the idea that some works of art, we just aren't ready for the first or second time, but then we reach a stage of life or frame of mind where we are ready. And maybe we have no idea what changed. I can't help thinking of some of those novels they made us read in school, even though schoolchildren are completely the wrong audience for them. A 16-year-old will never understand what Thomas Hardy was on about. But come back a few decades later, and the door has opened up.

I think there was some great commentator somewhere who said that the Seventh was structured like a work exploring and learning itself from the inside.

Very excited that we can all celebrate by hitting the Minnesota Orchestra's website and catching up on last night's concert!

Another, more commercial form of New Year's Sibelebration might be the eClassical "Daily Deal," 50% off download of Symphony No. 6 + Pelleas et Melisande with Neeme Jarvi and the Gothenburg Symphony. January 1st only. An hour of music for US $4.12.

The following comment from BIS founder Robert von Bahr is interesting:

"Another instalment of Neeme Järvi's ground-breaking Sibelius cycle with the Gothenburg SO. Ground-breaking, because this was the very first time that an orchestra agreed to - against the Union rules - record on royalties alone. It took more than a year of very hard negotiations for me to land this fish, and it turned out to be a pivotal point in the history of recordings. With this precedence, more and more orchestras built in recordings in their deals with the musicians' unions, and I think it is safe to say that, without my initiative, the favourable situation with lots of orchestral recordings for you, the listeners, would not have existed. Arguably this may be the biggest thing that BIS has accomplished to date."

I agree great from the listener's perspective.  But a couple of words of caution before we celebrate Mr von Bahr "ground-breaking initiative".  To me it smacks more than a tad of breaking the power of unions to negotiate for all their members across the board - the shade of mrs Thatcher perhaps.  Also, worth considering that a royalties only payment guarantees these artists at the very pinnacle of their profession not a single cent.  The hope will be that the recordings are hugely successful and profits are generated for all but the truth is that will rarely ever happen.  Of course I also understand that payment of substantial recording fees upfront would be all but impossible for many companies where sponsorship was not available.  So perhaps this is/was a pragmatic real-world solution but it does rely on not paying musicians what they are worth!  Also worth remembering - and I know this from a colleague who has negotiated first hand with Mr von Bahr - "mean" is probably the most generous description of his negotiating style......

Mirror Image

Quote from: Brian on January 01, 2022, 06:53:55 AMAnother, more commercial form of New Year's Sibelebration might be the eClassical "Daily Deal," 50% off download of Symphony No. 6 + Pelleas et Melisande with Neeme Jarvi and the Gothenburg Symphony. January 1st only. An hour of music for US $4.12.

The following comment from BIS founder Robert von Bahr is interesting:

"Another instalment of Neeme Järvi's ground-breaking Sibelius cycle with the Gothenburg SO. Ground-breaking, because this was the very first time that an orchestra agreed to - against the Union rules - record on royalties alone. It took more than a year of very hard negotiations for me to land this fish, and it turned out to be a pivotal point in the history of recordings. With this precedence, more and more orchestras built in recordings in their deals with the musicians' unions, and I think it is safe to say that, without my initiative, the favourable situation with lots of orchestral recordings for you, the listeners, would not have existed. Arguably this may be the biggest thing that BIS has accomplished to date."

Not much of a deal to only offer one of the recordings Järvi's Gothenburg cycle on BIS. His entire cycle should be available for that price. I've spoken with Robert von Bahr maybe twice and both exchanges were quite nice and pleasant, but I've already given him enough money by buying the entire Sibelius Edition (and so many other recordings through the years).

Pohjolas Daughter

#3143
Just finished watching the Sibelius concert from Minnesota.  Thoroughly enjoyed it.  One thing that surprised me though, besides the two symphonies and the humoresques, there wasn't Luonnator and that other work that Bruce had mentioned.  I also looked at the program and today's repeat concert and those works weren't listed there either.  They do have "bonus" ones with samples for Spotify listed though.

PD

EDIT:  I suspect that the singer was ill or couldn't attend for some reason or another and they substituted with the Humoresques instead.
Pohjolas Daughter

bhodges

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 01, 2022, 08:18:03 AM
Just finished watching the Sibelius concert from Minnesota.  Thoroughly enjoyed it.  One thing that surprised me though, besides the two symphonies and the humoresques, there wasn't Luonnator and that other work that Bruce had mentioned.  I also looked at the program and today's repeat concert and those works weren't listed there either.  They do have "bonus" ones with samples for Spotify listed though.

PD

EDIT:  I suspect that the singer was ill or couldn't attend for some reason or another and they substituted with the Humoresques instead.

Yes, the programming change was definitely a last-minute thing. My guess: the singer may have been flying in from Finland, and at the last minute looked at the pandemic numbers here and went, "Sorry, I can't do the concert." (She may have been anxious about getting back, which is also a worry these days.) So many things have been canceled in the last few weeks.

In any case, the substitution was delightful. I didn't know the Humoresques at all, nor the terrific violinist.

--Bruce

Madiel

Re the recording deal using royalties: it's perhaps notable that BIS recordings seem better at staying in print (and available to download or stream) than those of almost any other label. So he at least keeps the revenue stream open.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

bhodges

Last night's terrific Sibelius concert will be available for a week at the link below. When I mentioned the great trombones in the climax of the 7th Symphony, one friend said, "Those passages (and only those) are referred to in our household as 'the cosmic brass.'"

Certainly sounded that way last night!

https://mnorch.vhx.tv/videos/a-new-years-celebration

--Bruce

Symphonic Addict

Yes, very recommended. Man, it can't be missing in my list. A work of a supreme artistic creation. The noble spirit of Finland.

Masterpiece.
Part of the tragedy of the Palestinians is that they have essentially no international support for a good reason: they've no wealth, they've no power, so they've no rights.

Noam Chomsky

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: Brewski on January 01, 2022, 05:35:45 PM
Last night's terrific Sibelius concert will be available for a week at the link below. When I mentioned the great trombones in the climax of the 7th Symphony, one friend said, "Those passages (and only those) are referred to in our household as 'the cosmic brass.'"

Certainly sounded that way last night!

https://mnorch.vhx.tv/videos/a-new-years-celebration

--Bruce
Good to hear that it will be available for a while longer!  Tempted to go back and watch the Seventh in particular again.  :)  And sorry to hear the story about the premiere of the second and what the tuba player did.   :(

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

Elgarian Redux

Quote from: Brian on January 01, 2022, 06:53:55 AM
Well, this update brought me great joy, on top of the pleasure of seeing Elgarian on these pages again. Like Madiel, I agree that it makes sense. And there is something to the idea that some works of art, we just aren't ready for the first or second time, but then we reach a stage of life or frame of mind where we are ready. And maybe we have no idea what changed. I can't help thinking of some of those novels they made us read in school, even though schoolchildren are completely the wrong audience for them. A 16-year-old will never understand what Thomas Hardy was on about. But come back a few decades later, and the door has opened up.

I think there was some great commentator somewhere who said that the Seventh was structured like a work exploring and learning itself from the inside.

Very excited that we can all celebrate by hitting the Minnesota Orchestra's website and catching up on last night's concert!

Another, more commercial form of New Year's Sibelebration might be the eClassical "Daily Deal," 50% off download of Symphony No. 6 + Pelleas et Melisande with Neeme Jarvi and the Gothenburg Symphony. January 1st only. An hour of music for US $4.12.

The following comment from BIS founder Robert von Bahr is interesting:

"Another instalment of Neeme Järvi's ground-breaking Sibelius cycle with the Gothenburg SO. Ground-breaking, because this was the very first time that an orchestra agreed to - against the Union rules - record on royalties alone. It took more than a year of very hard negotiations for me to land this fish, and it turned out to be a pivotal point in the history of recordings. With this precedence, more and more orchestras built in recordings in their deals with the musicians' unions, and I think it is safe to say that, without my initiative, the favourable situation with lots of orchestral recordings for you, the listeners, would not have existed. Arguably this may be the biggest thing that BIS has accomplished to date."

A few days ago, Brian, I  wrote a lengthy reply to your post, clicked go - and .... nothing. I'd lost my internet connection, and my post. Naturally, it was the finest post I'd ever written, etc etc.

I now have internet restored and will try to remember what it was that I said a few days ago, but I'll have to do it tomorrow. Please bear with me.
Cheers.

Elgarian Redux

Right then. I wonder if I can remember any of the rich wisdom and deep wit that disappeared into cyberspace a few days ago when I tried to respond to this:

Quote from: Brian on January 01, 2022, 06:53:55 AM
I think there was some great commentator somewhere who said that the Seventh was structured like a work exploring and learning itself from the inside.

I read this quote with great interest - even excitement - Brian. It's an almost perfect description of what I was experiencing when I listened to it the other day, and I can now see exactly why Alfred North Whitehead's process philosophy would pop into my head unbidden. Let me offer a slightly more extended quote from Whitehead. He defines his term 'prehension', as follows:

Prehension is 'a complex process of appropriating into a unity of existence the many data presented as relevant by the physical processes of nature. ... I hold that these unities of existence, these occasions of experience, are the really real things which in their collective unity compose the evolving universe, ever plunging into the creative advance.' [Alfred North Whitehead. An Anthology, ed. by F. S. C. Northrop and M. W. Gross (New York: Macmillan, 1953), p. 907.]

What strikes me is that the 7th symphony can be regarded as presenting us with a symbol of this idea. As I listened to the symphony I was experiencing very much the kind of creative unfolding that Whitehead describes, like 'a work exploring and learning itself from the inside', as Brian's quote puts it. My experience of the 7th symphony seemed to be evolving in the way that an entire Whiteheadian universe evolves, and it gives us a whole new way of contemplating Whitehead's idea: not merely by thinking intellectually about it, but by 'going for the ride' as it were, along with the music.

I don't think I've ever encountered such a direct parallel between music and philosophy before, and it strikes me as pretty exciting.


relm1

You know who might be my two favorite Sibelius interpreters?  Ormandy and Szell.  I love their Sibelius and keep finding them to be the version I compare all others to.  What do you think?

Mirror Image

Quote from: relm1 on February 22, 2022, 04:56:35 PM
You know who might be my two favorite Sibelius interpreters?  Ormandy and Szell.  I love their Sibelius and keep finding them to be the version I compare all others to.  What do you think?

Ormandy and Szell? Really? Szell would be out of contention for me on the basis that he really didn't record much Sibelius. As with Ormandy, I've never been a fan of the conductor. I often find that he doesn't really bring any noteworthy interpretative insights to the music he conducts and this most certainly applies to his Sibelius. If I were only allowed to choose two Sibelius conductors, they would be Berglund and Karajan.

vers la flamme

Quote from: relm1 on February 22, 2022, 04:56:35 PM
You know who might be my two favorite Sibelius interpreters?  Ormandy and Szell.  I love their Sibelius and keep finding them to be the version I compare all others to.  What do you think?

Would love to hear some of Ormandy's Sibelius. Any particularly good recordings?

bhodges

Alas, can't recommend an Ormandy recording, but I can enthusiastically endorse this 1970 reading from Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra, recorded live in Tokyo. What makes it moving: He knew he was dying, and the orchestra did, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvgwzWTCzOc&t=1s

--Bruce

Roasted Swan

Quote from: vers la flamme on February 22, 2022, 05:42:34 PM
Would love to hear some of Ormandy's Sibelius. Any particularly good recordings?

There's an easy "one stop shop" for Ormandy/Sibelius;



this box has duplicate recordings where one is earlier/CBS and then also the later/RCA.  I also do rate Ormandy's Lemminkainen Legends that appeared on EMI


Irons

It is true as MI says Szell did not record much Sibelius - more the pity. But one of the greatest recordings of the 2nd Symphony was his.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

relm1

#3157
Quote from: Brewski on February 22, 2022, 05:50:27 PM
Alas, can't recommend an Ormandy recording, but I can enthusiastically endorse this 1970 reading from Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra, recorded live in Tokyo. What makes it moving: He knew he was dying, and the orchestra did, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvgwzWTCzOc&t=1s

--Bruce

Yes, exactly that one!  It just seems to be the one by which I compare all other #2 to.  As for Ormandy, the recording I was listening to and enjoying might be his complete Sibelius set.  Note it isn't a complete set either.


EDIT: Sorry Roasted Swan, I responded before seeing you already pointed out the set and yes, I agree he has a great Lemminkainen too!  I prefer the newer recordings on the Ormandy box set that are in stereo but you can tell, even with the mono recordings, he's a very fine interpreter of this music.

André

Ormandy's best Sibelius recordings are his mono Cleveland accounts of symphonies 4 and 5. The 4th in particular is devastating in its power and blackness. Apart from the box set you mention - and that I recommend without reservation - any Sibelius fan should try to find these two performances.

I add my vote to the performance of no 2 by Szell-Cleveland in Tokyo. Hair raising stuff indeed.

Brian

Also enthusiastic fan of Szell in Tokyo and many of the recordings in that Ormandy box. Maybe soon I'll go through the Ormandy again to make more detailed comments, but that big classic Philly string sound has an epic sweep that fits with more "romantic" interpretations.