The Snowshoed Sibelius

Started by Dancing Divertimentian, April 16, 2007, 08:39:57 PM

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Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich

#160
Hello everyone,

Some of JS' small orchestral pieces are really really beautyful. They aren't played or heard too often... Do some come to your mind? Do you have recommendations? 2 pieces come to my mind, do you know them?

1. "Canzonetta, Op.62a" (66b is Valse romantique). It's a rather contemplative song, the pizziccato string bass gives it a good "swing".
Here's an excerpt: [mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/Canzonetta%20Op.62a.mp3[/mp3]
2. "Act II, No.9, Lento" of Swanwhite op. 54 - Can be found on the Wood Nymph recording from BIS. Nice.

Michael

DavidRoss

I like The Bard and Scene with Cranes (the latter is often played as a stand alone piece).
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

karlhenning

Quote from: DavidRoss on April 29, 2008, 05:23:24 AM
I like The Bard and Scene with Cranes (the latter is often played as a stand alone piece).

Those are both delightful. I first heard The Bard live at Symphony.  The Scene with Cranes is part of the incidental music which gave us the Valse triste, IIRC

DavidRoss

You RC, dude!  Pageant music. 

It's nice to see this thread resurrected.  I mourn the loss of the old thread on the now inaccessible old forum.  It had many thoughtful comments and fine recommendations--as did some other old threads now lost. 

After a break of several months during which I've scarcely listened to Sibelius, I think it's about time to remedy that.  ;D
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

karlhenning

That's the really great thing about the depth and variety of the literature:  I often dwell with a particular pocket of the lit, and then my ears are fresh to return to another well-loved composer, without tiring of anything  :)

Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich

Oh yes, I like the Bard. The Scene with cranes, yes, listened to it once, I'll give it another try. BTW I don't know what's so good about the Valse Triste. It never became a friend of mine.

karlhenning

Don't know how to vouch for it; I've just always liked it.  In fact, I've arranged it for cl/vn/pf trio.

karlhenning

I need to remember, this evening, to pack up the Lenny/NY Phil symphonies set to fetch back in to the office;  want to revisit that.

DavidRoss

Quote from: karlhenning on April 30, 2008, 03:56:01 AM
I need to remember, this evening, to pack up the Lenny/NY Phil symphonies set to fetch back in to the office;  want to revisit that.
That's a good un!  Maybe I'll follow suit, and take them sequentially.  Though I've already resumed some Sibelius listening, with Maazel's Tapiola and Segerstam's 4th. 
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Wurstwasser on April 29, 2008, 03:02:57 AM
Hello everyone,
Some of JS' small orchestral pieces are really really beautyful. They aren't played or heard too often... Do some come to your mind?

I love the beauty, and resignation, in Prospero, from the incidental music to The Tempest:

...I'll break my staff,
Bury it certain fathoms in the earth
And deeper than did ever plummet sound
I'll drown my book.


The second movement of Scènes Historiques Op.25, Scena, is quite appealing to me; the drama and militant majesty.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich

#170
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2008, 05:35:39 AMI love the beauty, and resignation, in Prospero, from the incidental music to The Tempest:[/i]

Don't know that one, but hey, how could I forget: "ANTONIO - DANCE OF THE SHAPES" from the Tempest. It's very, very powerful and pure fun, great melody, makes you feel great, good stuff for spring maybe. I have it as an audio file of Vänskä/Lahti, a Radio recording. I like it when the beginning is played Klezmer like.

EDIT: I remember it's uploaded somewhere. As it was from a radio broadcast, here's the file, listen yourself, you won't be disappointed. Very accessible:

[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/Antonio.%20Dance%20of%20the%20Shapes.mp3[/mp3]

QuoteThe second movement of Scènes Historiques Op.25, Scena, is quite appealing to me; the drama and militant majesty.

Oh, I've got it somewhere, should give it a first try, have never listened to them. There's also another Scenes Historiques IIRC.

Sarge

DavidRoss

The music for The Tempest is wonderful, indeed, as is his other theatre music--none of which is as well known as it deserves.  Saraste's complete recording with Monica Groop floats my boat, but the Segerstam disc with both suites is a fine introduction.  Think I'll pop that in now, following Ms Hahn's gorgeous Lark Ascending.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Symphonien

I've been struggling to try and understand Sibelius for a while now, but I think the 4th may be my way in. I urge anyone that hasn't to listen to Stephen Johnson's brilliant lecture on this symphony at BBC's Discovering Music archive (just scroll down to Sibelius and then click on the audio link to the 4th Symphony). I had previously thought Sibelius was too traditional and that was part of what deterred me, but this analysis has shown me how modern he really can be. Where Schoenberg was radical in his approach to harmony by adding so many chromatic notes that the sense of a home key became lost, Sibelius is equally radical but in a different way. He pits several keys against each other, so that by the time we get to the end of the symphony and it ends simply in A Minor it doesn't sound simple at all! All the other elements are radical in their own ways as well: his rhythm - the way he overlaps the cellos and basses at the introduction of the first movement, the way he seemingly has two tempos moving at the same time in various parts - but above all his approach to form. I love the "organic growth" and the way he lets his themes and motives decide the form on their own rather than predefining a structure, so that any sense of sonata form/ternary/etc disappears and the boundaries of development/recapitulation cannot be defined, and rather don't really exist at all but instead give way to a new process unique to Sibelius.

By the way, here's a quick little question for anyone who has the score to this symphony:

The 4-note motif which permeates the finale (A-B-C#-B) - is it written for glockenspiel or tubular bells? On Blomstedt's recording, it is played on tubular bells, but on the recording I heard used on BBC's Discovering Music analysis of the work it is played on glockenspiel. I have also seen it referred to elsewhere as a glockenspiel melody. Maybe Sibelius just wrote "bells" in the score and Blomstedt interpreted this to mean tubular bells? What instrument is it played on in other recordings?

Sergeant Rock

#173
Quote from: Symphonien on May 04, 2008, 05:08:53 AM

Maybe Sibelius just wrote "bells" in the score and Blomstedt interpreted this to mean tubular bells? What instrument is it played on in other recordings?

Here are a few examples. I hope others will "chime" in with other performances. I'll keep adding to the list.


Glockenspiel

Maazel/Vienna
Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
Berglund/COE
Berglund/Bournemouth
Berglund/Helsinki
Vänskä/Lahti SO
Karajan/Berlin Phil (DG)
Karajan/Berlin Phil (EMI)
Segerstam/Helsinki
Beecham/RPO
Barbirolli/Hallé
Sakari/Iceland
Kegel/Dresden
Rattle/CBSO
Rozhdestvensky/Moscow
Sanderling/Berlin SO
Saraste/Finnish RSO
Inkinen/New Zealand SO

Tubular Bells

Bernstein/NY Phil
Ormandy/Philadelphia
Blomstedt/San Francisco
Ansermet/Suisse Romande
Stokowski

Glockenspiel and Tubular Bells

Maazel/Pittsburgh
Davis/LSO (RCA)
Davis/Boston
Järvi/Gothenburg
Szell/Cleveland
Reiner/Chicago

Szell and Reiner begin with the glockenspiel, then add tubular bells, and end with just bells.

I think the combination of instruments is the most effective. Davis, for example, begins with glockenspiel, uses bells only in the central climax, and has both appear near the symphony's end, which make those bars sound even more chaotic and disturbing than usual.


Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

DavidRoss

Thanks for the listing, Sarge.  IIRC Berglund's other recordings also use glockenspiel, as do Rozhdestvensky, Rattle, Sanderling, and Maazel/Pittsburg.  But it was Bernstein's NYPO recording that turned me on to this piece.  Perhaps that has something to do with why glockenspiel in the 4th movement sounds wrong to my ears.  But also it's such a weighty symphony that the deep resonance of the tubular bells just seems right and the tinkly glockenspiel seems trivial.

My sources on this say that the manuscript score says "Glocken," which is "Bells" in German.  Some think that he must have meant bells, i.e. tubular bells, but some argue that he could have abbreviated the word "Glockenspiel."  According to Michael Steinberg, there is a letter from Sibelius in which he suggests using "Glockenspiel" in the 4th but "Stahlstäbe" for The Oceanides.  However, since "Stahlstäbe" is another German word used for the instrument we know as the glockenspiel, this document which some cite as dispositive in favor of the glockenspiel actually makes a case for bells, for Sibelius was clearly trying to distinguish between the sounds he wanted for the two pieces.  Bottom line: a puzzle, no more likely to be solved definitively than we are likely to discover the lost score for the 8th Symphony.

As I acquired various cycles on CD, often the first thing I would do is turn to the 4th movement of the 4th to hear whether the conductor got it right.  They seldom did.  I bought the complete Järvi cycle primarily because I heard that he had used both and wanted to know what that sounded like.  (Good!)  There is probably no more thorough Sibelius scholar among musicians today than Paavo Berglund.  Beats me why he uses the damned glockenspiel!  Otherwise, his COE 4th is pretty effing impeccable!  Vänskä has practically made a career of "authentic" Sibelius performance, and he, too, disappoints me in this.  And I cannot understand why Segerstam opted for the tinkly little steel bars in his lush and powerful reading with the HPO, but there it is.  Nobody's perfect.  Or at least nobody but Blomstedt and Bernstein, both of whom got this right and pretty much everything else in their respective cycles with the SFSO & NYPO. 
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Sergeant Rock

#175
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 04, 2008, 07:39:50 AM
Thanks for the listing, Sarge.  IIRC Berglund's other recordings also use glockenspiel, as do Rozhdestvensky, Rattle, Sanderling, and Maazel/Pittsburg

Thanks for the additions, David. One correction: Maazel, in Pittsburgh, uses the glockenspiel initially but then, like Davis, switches to bells for the central climax. After that it's back to the glockenspiel.

Quote from: DavidRoss on May 04, 2008, 07:39:50 AM
But it was Bernstein's NYPO recording that turned me on to this piece.  Perhaps that has something to do with why glockenspiel in the 4th movement sounds wrong to my ears.

And Karajan was my first Sibelius 4 which perhaps explains why the tubular bells sound wrong to me...at least in the first third of the symphony. As I said in my initial post, it's the combination of instruments that work best for me now. I like the glockenspiel in the beginning because it sounds so bright and optimistic. But I think the tubular bells add significantly to the central climax, sounding so much more majestic than a tinkly glockenspiel. Davis, using both instruments in the final pages, superbly depicts the chaos and disintegration.

Quote from: DavidRoss on May 04, 2008, 07:39:50 AM
My sources on this say that the manuscript score says "Glocken," which is "Bells" in German.  Some think that he must have meant bel, i.e. tubular bells, but some argue that he could have abbreviated the word "Glockenspiel."  Bottom line: a puzzle, no more likely to be solved definitively than we are likely to discover the lost score for the 8th Symphony.

The problem seems to be that Sibelius added a period after Glocken, suggesting it was an abbreviation for Glockenspiel instead of just Glocken, the German word for bells. In any case, I love mysteries, and the ambiguity in Sibelius's score allows us multiple interpretations of a supreme musical masterpiece...and that's cool.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

DavidRoss

And thanks for the emendation, Sarge. 
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

M forever

I like both the bells and the glockenspiel, though not at the same time. I think a conductor should decide for either or, the mixed versions don't make so much sense to me. I think I would ultimately chose the bells, but the glockenspiel makes an interesting effect, too, kind of demonically (does such a word exist?) playful which fits very well in the context.

Symphonien

#178
Hmm... a mystery then. Thanks for those facts Sarge and David (and especially that listing of recordings!). So it was like I suspected; just "bells", which is sometimes used to refer to the glockenspiel in English as well. I might pick up another recording some time then to see how it sounds with glockenspiel in that last movement - I'm considering getting Maazel's Vienna set next, and I've heard that one has a great 4th too. Although I haven't heard one yet, I agree with M that a version with both instruments wouldn't really make sense musicologically since I'm sure Sibelius would have made it clear if this was what he intended, although it may prove interesting to listen to.

John Copeland

Well, I've had a look at Sibelius threads here, but there isn't one for general Sibleian discussion.
For example, which performance of Snofrid, Op. 29 do you recommend?  It has fast become one of my favourite pieces ever.  I have only the one version, Vanska with the Lahti Symphony Orchestra, so I'd like to know what the forum thinks before I buy another of the same in the hope of something better
And what is your favourite tone poem - and why it so?  Mines done by Scottish National Orchestra under Sir Alexander Gibson:  Nightride and Sunrise.  Recorded in Glasgow City Halls in 1978 (released six years later I think) - there's more mystery and curiosity with the Gibson version, we know we're on the journey the title depicts and oh what a glorious sunrise!  You can see the dawn sky opening up, it's getting louder, you're on that snowbound single track through Southern Finland on your way to Helsinki, and here comes the Sun, but is it, is it not, yes it is and hell the SNO and Gibson make me think just that.
Anyway, er... I am getting carried away, but I hope this post finds a life - we need more Sibelius!  ;D 0:)

Here is an uncharacteristic picture of the Finnish Master - he is young and has hair.  Followed by our man Sibelius in more recognisable format.