The Snowshoed Sibelius

Started by Dancing Divertimentian, April 16, 2007, 08:39:57 PM

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DavidRoss

Quote from: moldyoldie on February 20, 2009, 07:13:55 AM
Outside of the gorgeously recorded orchestral sound (RCA and the LSO seem to strike a chord with me, ever since Previn's Vaughan Williams cycle), this is Sibelius from a relaxing spa (or as has been suggested, a geriatric ward) -- perhaps only ephemerally and superficially evocative of rugged landscapes, savage myths, but not the least of "cool, clear water".  Davis and the LSO  make "beautiful music" of these incredible Sibelian inventions in performances stripped of spontaneity and milked for all the lushness and warmth of sonority that can possibly be mustered.   I'm not altogether convinced these performances even work as drama, especially for the novice listener.  However, one can certainly bask in the pure sound of it all.
I've not heard this particular disc of symphonic poems, but I have some of the symphony recordings they made and your assessment tallies with my impressions.  See?  We can agree sometimes!
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Moldyoldie

#281
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 20, 2009, 07:26:01 AMSee?  We can agree sometimes!
Well, by my tally, we've agreed once and disagreed once -- I'd like to see a larger sampling. :P ;)

FWIW, I've mostly enjoyed what I've heard of Davis' Sibelius symphony cycle on LSO Live -- especially the Seventh!  I'm so bold as to say it's the most stirring and moving interpretation and performance I've ever heard. 

Beware the Fifth, however -- it's "Hum Along with Sir Colin". ::)
"I think the problem with technology is that people use it because it's around.  That is disgusting and stupid!  Please quote me."
- Steve Reich

DavidRoss

If it's stirring then I probably won't like it.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Moldyoldie

#283
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 22, 2009, 05:58:01 AM
If it's stirring then I probably won't like it.
Ah, so you like it shaken, not stirred.


Here's another mutual disagreement, abetted by my pasted comments from a few months ago:

Sibelius: Symphony No. 6; Symphony No. 4
Chamber Orchestra of Europe
Paavo Berglund, cond.
FINLANDIA

Hearing these two symphonies played by a chamber-sized orchestra conducted by no less a Sibelian authority than Paavo Berglund sounded like an interesting proposition, seeing that the Sixth is my (current) personal favorite of The Sibelian Seven (for reasons not entirely quantifiable) and that I've yet to hear a recording of the Fourth that I didn't find at least...intriguing.  The used CD was also priced very reasonably, quite unlike other individual disks in Berglund's last recorded cycle.

Textures are crystal clear as the orchestra is not only lean, but play with very fine ensemble and intonation.  Miking puts the listener right on the podium with a very broad, yet intimate soundstage, all recorded in vaunted 24-bit digital.  I'm certain if one puts their mind to it, they could delineate every single note and individual sonority.

Now, let me get this out and over with -- these must be the most leaden and uninvolving interpretations of these two great symphonies I've ever heard! There.  Sure, I'm hearing things I've not heard before, but to what end overall?  At least the short interview of Berglund in the booklet was interesting.

FWIW, I also have Berglund's late '60s recording of the Fourth with the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra, but it's been a few years since I've heard it; maybe it's time to dig it out.  At best, the present CD will hereafter be considered a very, very remote alternative.




[Back to the present] I did go back and listen to Berglund's Fourth on this recording; it's one of my absolute favorites.  The interpretation is similar, but I believe the size of the band makes a salient difference.  Again, my comments are pasted from a past posting:

Sibelius: Symphony No. 4
Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra
Paavo Berglund, cond.

Sibelius: Symphony No. 5
Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra
Jorma Panula, cond.
FINLANDIA

These recordings originally date from 1968 and are thoroughly inside the idiom.   A few months ago, I heard Berglund's most recent commercial recording of the Symphony No. 4 with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe (also on the Finlandia label) and commented on how leaden and uninvolving the performance was compared to most others I've heard.  Well, this performance with his erstwhile band, the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra, presents much the same interpretation, perhaps even darker and more expansive, but with some much needed heft and resonance throughout the timbral spectrum, especially in those growling double-basses and expressive massed strings, which here are unusually subdued and hence even more forbidding.  They continue on in painting the bleakest possible sonic landscape throughout the entire opening movement.  Even the brief allegro molto vivace second movement hardly offers a respite from the bleakness.  It makes Berglund's incredibly forlorn, but impressively well-wrought il tempo largo third movement an extended expression of utter despair. I'm trying to remember if even Karajan, Bernstein, and a few other notables were this cold and dour in their memorable traversals of this landscape.  The figurative light breaking through the dark clouds in the beginning of the finale, accented here with softly rung glockenspiel, hardly brings a feeling of redemption. Instead, Berglund offers merely an extended baiting glimpse of hope before foundering in a wave of dissonance.  Orchestral balances are impressively unique here in conjuring this effect. The dynamic suddenly shifts to a jarring forte late in the movement, but quickly subsides into a coda suggesting hope was but a taunting zephyr -- the inexorable gloom returns, soon fading, along with all else, on a hushed closing whimper.  Now I know what was missing from that COE recording:  It makes one believe that this, Sibelius' masterpiece of personal expression, is best heard in large swaths of varying greys as opposed to mere pen & ink, and it's certainly worth the hearing for anyone with an affinity for this symphony.  I've not heard Berglund's two other recordings with the Bournemouth and Helsinki orchestras on EMI.

Noted Finnish conducting guru Jorma Panula was music director of the Helsinki Phiharmonic at this time and offers up a unique and musically insightful rendering of the popular Symphony No. 5.  The opening clarion horn slowly unfurls and the succeeding winds display a delightfully earthy quality seemingly straight from a Finnish bog -- it's difficult to adequately describe and I'm loathe to think it's merely due to the power of musical suggestion.  The opening movement develops most effectively up to the first appearance of the so-called swan hymn, through which the tempo upshifts to a delightful lilt.  From there, the build to the movement's coda is superbly realized with just the right amount of tempo and dynamic adjustments to bring maximum effect to the powerful ostinato crescendo, launched abruptly and executed with superb ensemble -- yowza!  Following a fine andante second movement, the allegro molto finale is taken at the most relaxed and softly expressive measure I ever remember hearing!   The final swan hymn has brass braying with that marvelous earthy quality heard earlier in the winds -- more power of suggestion?  I don't think so, this is the real McCoy!  The symphony's concluding bursts are tight and terse, bringing an end to this uniquely satisfying performance.  My not-always-acute-sense is that this is the kind of performance Esa-Pekka Salonen "meant" to produce for CBS with the Philharmonia, instead of the...well, never mind.
"I think the problem with technology is that people use it because it's around.  That is disgusting and stupid!  Please quote me."
- Steve Reich

DavidRoss

Quote from: moldyoldie on February 22, 2009, 06:06:20 AM
Here's another mutual disagreement....
Yep--that's one of my faves.  I like my Sibelius crisp and clean, with all voices clearly delineated.  Not just Sibelius, but a general preference for most music, especially of the more thickly scored variety--one reason why Boulez is one of my mostest favoritest conductors (with apologies to Cato).  ;)
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

eyeresist


Benji

Quote from: DavidRoss on February 22, 2009, 07:30:23 AM
Yep--that's one of my faves.  I like my Sibelius crisp and clean, with all voices clearly delineated.  Not just Sibelius, but a general preference for most music, especially of the more thickly scored variety--one reason why Boulez is one of my mostest favoritest conductors (with apologies to Cato).  ;)

Perhaps Boulez will tackle Sibelius at some point. He recently did some Janacek (Glagolitic Mass at last years BBC Proms), which is a bit off his beaten track, though it wasn't very memorable IMO.

Moldyoldie

#287
(Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?)


Sibelius: Symphony No. 2; Pohjola's Daughter
London Symphony Orchestra
Sir Colin Davis, cond.
LSO LIVE

Colin Davis' conception here of the popular Sibelius Symphony No. 2 (I've not heard any of his other recordings of No. 2, but have read his approach hasn't changed much over the years) is hardly heroic in the grand sense; it's more one of brooding rumination as heard in consistently broad, heavy-handed phrasing and a minimum of overt dynamic variation -- it's also mostly a crushing bore.   I've put myself at the mercy of this three times and hear less and less of what I would deem to be "inspiration".   The orchestra still plays very well, the all-important transitions and climaxes are handled with subtle and consummate skill, but Davis is loathe to whip up any fire and froth to suggest a composer in the throes of Romantic fervor (Bernstein, Barbirolli, and Karajan in equally expansive renderings), nor does he offer up much of an intellectually interesting interpretation (Vänskä, in a cool and similarly sober vein, and also perhaps Segerstam, who also reins in the emotion) -- forget about tuneful, invigorating, or merely entertaining (Ormandy, Szell, Berglund, and even Levine).  For the experienced listener, hearing this Second is akin to having one foot in the barren Sibelian landscape of his Fourth Symphony; I leave it to that listener to determine if it's worth exploring as this one is hesitant to return -- the novice should probably stay clear.

The program starts off, however, with a very expressive performance of Pohjola's Daughter, replete with more mournful portamento from the solo cellist than I've ever heard in the piece.  Here Davis allows the optimism to emerge with finely judged phrasing, dynamic bursts and crescendi.  The piece affectingly winds down and ends with the quietest strings imaginable, perhaps partly a function of a recording which is wide in dynamic range, but noticeably shy of resonance and bass presence.

Speaking of which, I've read many complaints about the exceedingly dry acoustic of the Barbican venue heard on this series of releases from the LSO Live label.  It's never been a big problem with me as it seems oddly suited to the Sibelian repertoire and particularly to Colin Davis' mostly intimate and cerebral take on it.   
"I think the problem with technology is that people use it because it's around.  That is disgusting and stupid!  Please quote me."
- Steve Reich

John Copeland

moldyoldie 
Your Sibelius reviews make very interesting reading, and arm us with a very considered viewpoint for our own listening.  Thanks.

Dancing Divertimentian

Just in from the Associated Press:

"Obama taps Sebelius for HHS secretary".

Good job.
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

jlaurson

Quote from: donwyn on February 28, 2009, 03:03:40 PM
Just in from the Associated Press:

"Obama taps Sebelius for HHS secretary".

Good job.

No doubt we are to expect an immediate freeze in wiretapping? 

Dancing Divertimentian

Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Moldyoldie

#292
[Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?"]

Sibelius: Symphony No. 2; Romance in C
Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra
Neeme Järvi, cond.
BIS

Here's a performance of the Sibelius Symphony No. 2 in the same vein as Berglund's Helsinki recording, also from the mid-'80s -- mostly direct and straightforward, and based on my now extensive listening experience, often seemingly bordering on the impetuous. The allegretto first movement flies by with nary a ponderous moment, but with a great deal of sparkle, vim and vigor.  The alacrity makes for a most effective transition to the dramatically downshifted andante second movement; here's where Järvi and company make for some very effective phrasing marked by powerful dynamic variance and providing a most expressive rubato which Sibelius asks for in his labeling of the movement -- very nicely done!  The vivacissimo third movement bursts out of the starting gate at full throttle with ensemble barely held together by the strings.  There's a very pregnant pause before the beautifully pensive interlude from the winds, then the horserace recommences till the dramatically downshifted winds again sing their song.  The difficult extended crescendo building into the finale is marvelously rendered here, held together very nicely. I've heard some fairly ragged ensemble playing in this all-important section, but certainly not here!  The finale itself is exemplary of how I most like to hear it -- unbridled in the forte sections with pointed adherence to the big tune, while momentarily contemplative in the contrasting quieter sections.  (For those with an interest in orchestral nuance, I'm hearing the tuba here as emphatically as I ever have in this movement.)  Again, the coda builds very dramatically and the symphony is brought home in stirring fashion -- indeed, inspiration seemingly exudes from every pore of this performance.  All told, and not to sound brash, but here's your antidote to the likes of Colin Davis...if one feels the need. 

This is the first I'm hearing the Romance in C for string orchestra, labeled Op. 42 and first performed in 1904 (Symphony No. 2 is Op. 43 from 1901).  It's a very short five-and-a-half minute mini-drama of sorts in the Sibelian style most reminiscent of Tchaikovsky. It's pleasant enough and probably holds some interest as Sibelian arcana, but makes for an insubstantial and anticlimactic conclusion to a CD program of only about 47 minutes -- that's how they often did it in the early days of digital, folks.

As an aside, it's amusing how BIS would print a large red warning on the front directing us to see the back cover with the following:  "WARNING! Contrary to established practice this recording retains the staggering dynamics of the ORIGINAL performance.  This may damage your loudspeakers, but given first-rate playback equipment you are guaranteed a truly remarkable musical and audio experience.  Good luck!"  Yes, it's a fine recording -- spaciously vivid and weighted toward the highs with only slight hints of congestion on fortissimos -- but know that the early digital sound has since been generally eclipsed.  If your loudspeakers are still intact, your "good luck" will be in hearing this stimulating performance of the Sibelius Second.


(p.s. Thank you for the comment on the previous page, John.  :)  The pleasure's mine.)
"I think the problem with technology is that people use it because it's around.  That is disgusting and stupid!  Please quote me."
- Steve Reich

Mark G. Simon

Quote from: donwyn on February 28, 2009, 03:03:40 PM
Just in from the Associated Press:

"Obama taps Sebelius for HHS secretary".

I just hope they've vetted her for alcohol problems. Also, I fear she may spend the next 8 years working on a major policy statement, and then burn it at the last minute.

Kullervo

I've been interested in hearing Sibelius's piano music for some time now, but have been wary to take the plunge on a set. Any comments on the pieces? Are they all "potboilers" or are some of real substance? Standouts?

I'm considering this set:


Lethevich

Do you like Grieg's solo piano music? There are comparisons which can be made between the two composers. Their piano music can be "nice", but to anybody with high standards a complete set would be OTT. In addition, I find that Sibelius' piano music doesn't have the highlights of Grieg's either.

This isn't to say that the Sibelius isn't fine throughout - and with some appealing miniatures - but it's simply not excellent. Some people seem unhappy owning even slightly weaker music, let alone paying for it. Perhaps check out one of the Naxos CDs before buying a set (I can send some samples if you like).
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

DavidRoss

Yeah, in brief, some of the piano music is reasonably good, but it wasn't an instrument he had much affinity for and his piano music was meant for home entertainment, not ART.  Better are his songs, especially later ones.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Kullervo

#297
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 25, 2009, 07:44:55 PM
his piano music was meant for home entertainment, not ART.

Do any of the piano pieces qualify as ART, so that I could narrow down my search to one or two discs? I'm a snob, I can't help it.

Quote from: DavidRoss on March 25, 2009, 07:44:55 PM
Better are his songs, especially later ones.

That's interesting. I've never heard anything about the songs! (And I call myself a Sibelius fan?)

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Corey on March 25, 2009, 08:05:22 PM
That's interesting. I've never heard anything about the songs! (And I call myself a Sibelius fan?)

You should check out the first post on this thread. 0:)
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

DavidRoss

Quote from: Corey on March 25, 2009, 08:05:22 PM
Do any of the piano pieces qualify as ART, so that I could narrow down my search to one or two discs? I'm a snob, I can't help it.

That's interesting. I've never heard anything about the songs! (And I call myself a Sibelius fan?)
Just get this disc:



We'll talk about orchestral songs later
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher