The Snowshoed Sibelius

Started by Dancing Divertimentian, April 16, 2007, 08:39:57 PM

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DavidW

At first the fourth symphony sounded like nothing more than a big pile of notes, but after time it came to be my favorite of his symphonies.

bhodges

Just as an aside, one of the enticing items in this latest box of live Concertgebouw recordings (from 1980-1990) is a Sibelius Sixth conducted by Sir Colin Davis, taped Jan. 20, 1983.  I don't know the piece all that well (heard it, but not to the point of familiarity), but will post comments afterward.

--Bruce

karlhenning

Quote from: DavidW on July 23, 2009, 08:57:05 AM
At first the fourth symphony sounded like nothing more than a big pile of notes

The first recording of the Fourth I ever heard, was HvK, too  8)

Tapkaara

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 23, 2009, 09:15:53 AM
The first recording of the Fourth I ever heard, was HvK, too  8)

Hahahaha, Karajan's 4th is often considered one of the best...

DavidW

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 23, 2009, 09:15:53 AM
The first recording of the Fourth I ever heard, was HvK, too  8)

Hey what a coincidence! :D

DavidRoss

#385
Quote from: DavidW on July 23, 2009, 08:57:05 AM
At first the fourth symphony sounded like nothing more than a big pile of notes,
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 23, 2009, 09:15:53 AM
The first recording of the Fourth I ever heard, was HvK, too  8)
;D ;D ;D  >:D
Quote from: Tapkaara on July 23, 2009, 09:17:38 AM
Hahahaha, Karajan's 4th is often considered one of the best...

Yes...and the check is in the mail, sure I'll respect you in the morning, and Obama's socialized medicine plan will reduce costs while improving services!

Quote from: DavidW on July 23, 2009, 09:18:07 AM
Hey what a coincidence! :D

I've been intrigued by the fourth since the first time I heard it, and learned to love it soon after.  Maazel/WP.  Still one of the best, methinks, and not solely because I imprinted on it.  (As for Herbie the K's DGG 4th, it's not as bad as one might think--though I'd want to hear it again before betting on it.  Seems I used to think it was pretty good but changed my mind last time I played it.  Hmmm.)

Still haven't made time for Segerstam/HPO 2nd...but lunchtime approaches!
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

karlhenning

Quote from: DavidRoss on July 23, 2009, 09:40:24 AM
I've been intrigued by the fourth since the first time I heard it, and learned to love it soon after.  Maazel/WP.

That's the one which 'redeemed' the piece for me, after it had been . . . Herbied  8)

DavidW

A former gmg member sent me a copy of Maazel, and it is sweet! 8)  Segerstam is perfectly fine for me though, of course that is my favorite cycle.

DavidRoss

Quote from: DavidW on July 23, 2009, 09:45:19 AM
A former gmg member sent me a copy of Maazel, and it is sweet! 8)  Segerstam is perfectly fine for me though, of course that is my favorite cycle.

I first read that as "former gang member" -- appropriate, eh?  Mike, I would guess.  Segerstam may be more dramatic, IIRC, and though I generally prefer leaner readings, like Vänskä or Blomstedt, and my absolute favorite 4th these days is Berglund/COE, I still think Segerstam's cycle is first rate, right up there with Lennie & Lorin for romantic vigor, but even more lush and in very good sound!

Damn!  All this recent discussion about Sibelius is kicking my jones into high gear.  Must...hear...Sibelius!
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

DavidW

Yeah it was your review that got me to acquire the Segerstam cycle Dave.  I wanted Lennie like performances with better sound, and bingo! :)

karlhenning

Quote from: DavidRoss on July 23, 2009, 10:01:27 AM
Damn!  All this recent discussion about Sibelius is kicking my jones into high gear.  Must...hear...Sibelius!

Yes, as soon as this here Hindemith Nobilissima visione is done, I'm tossing on Lenny & the NYPhil playing the mighty Fourth!

not edward

Count me as another who would counsel people not to give up on the 4th, 6th and 7th (definitely my favourites from the cycle, though I tend to prefer the more introverted, concise Sibelius).

I only have the Davis remake of the 3rd, and haven't really enjoyed it--this thread is making it clear to me I should acquire another. Suggestions? (Right now I'd be inclining to buying the Blomstedt set.)
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Elgarian

Quote from: DavidW on July 23, 2009, 05:48:50 AM
Well if you are going to have Bernstein, you might as well add Ormandy and Barbirolli, I might be the absolutely one to find positive things to say but it would certainly contrast the overwhelming modernist list that you have now Elgarian. :)

Thanks David. Just been listening to some samples from Bernstein's as a matter of fact, and I must say this does sound like my kind of Sibelius. Barbirolli, however, is by no means a daft suggestion. Ormandy I know nothing about.

karlhenning

Quote from: Elgarian on July 23, 2009, 11:50:34 AM
Barbirolli, however, is by no means a daft suggestion.

Never, indeed, to one whose handle is Elgarian  0:) 8)

DavidW

You know I hate when I drop words and don't even realize it.  "absolutely only one" becomes "absolute one", arg it's so annoying.  I even look over my post but my mind fills in the missing words and I don't notice their absence. ::)

Anyway nobody ever talks about Ormandy anymore.  People kind of stopped caring about the Philadephia Orchestra after Stokowski stepped down.  I know of Ormandy because he appears in Sony Essential Classics, which I collected alot when I was in high school because they were cheap and my stereo was so poor I couldn't hear how hissy they sounded (that was before they remastered them).  At that time I actually liked his performances as much as Bernstein and would grab them up when I saw them in the store.  I think most listeners don't like Ormandy as much though.

Elgarian

Quote from: Tapkaara on July 23, 2009, 08:51:43 AM
I would urge you NOT to give up on symphonies 4, 6 and 7.

You're a great advocate, Erik, and I'm not in the least suggesting that there aren't great treasures within those symphonies worth digging for; the trouble is that I think it requires more commitment to Sibelius than I have these days. I suppose I've given at least one of those symphonies a try, once every few years, spread over maybe 40 years. I have to ask myself how many times I should listen to them, when they've always left me baffled, bored and unmoved. There's never been a glimmer of light. Against that experience, there is this vast ocean of hitherto unexplored music beckoning from the baroque, most of which I'm pretty sure will be enormously rewarding. I don't think I'm being defeatist; I'm just juggling priorities.

Elgarian

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 23, 2009, 11:55:26 AM
Never, indeed, to one whose handle is Elgarian  0:) 8)

Exactly so; it puzzles me somewhat that I've never heard any Barbirolli Sibelius as far as I recall. But I suppose many of my omissions in all walks of life would puzzle me if I chose to contemplate them.

Drasko

Quote from: edward on July 23, 2009, 11:12:48 AM
I only have the Davis remake of the 3rd, and haven't really enjoyed it--this thread is making it clear to me I should acquire another. Suggestions? (Right now I'd be inclining to buying the Blomstedt set.)

Suggestions for 3rd or the cycle? If 3rd try Mustonen/Helsinki Festival Orchestra on Ondine.

DavidW

Quote from: Elgarian on July 23, 2009, 12:12:54 PM
Exactly so; it puzzles me somewhat that I've never heard any Barbirolli Sibelius as far as I recall. But I suppose many of my omissions in all walks of life would puzzle me if I chose to contemplate them.

I think you'd like his Sibelius, he has a very romantic take on the symphonies.  A bit slow at times, but never plodding.

DavidRoss

Quote from: Tapkaara on July 23, 2009, 08:42:01 AM
It's hard for me to believe that Segerstam wanted full-throated romanticism in this reading of the second. he delivers it in the 1st and 5th, but something is strangly lacking here. It's as if he wanted to do something different to what is usually listed as people's favorite symphony of the 7. It's like he wanted to go for some "classical" style approach and de-emphasize the dramatic qualities in favor of something else. I'm not sure what that something else is, but his interpretation just does not work for me. I remember the first time I heard it, I was massively dissapointed.
Okay, Bruce (right?  Bruce?) -- I played through this 2nd and I sure get what you're talking about.  To me, Segerstam's conception is very expansive and subjugates structure to the beauty of the sounds--particularly the HPO winds and brass, splendidly refurbished since Berglund recorded his cycle with the same orchestra back in the '80s.  It's grand and lush, but not especially dramatic.  From my perspective it works reasonably well, but it flags a bit in the fourth movement.  Where he really ought to hold more tension, via crisp attacks in the brass, strings, and timpani, he's too soft instead of edgy.  Instead of energy building to a climax, he lets things drift a bit and get somewhat...er...flaccid.

I think Segerstam is striving for some deep, spiritual introspection--informed, perhaps, by looking forward to the fourth symphony--but it seems a bit out of place, at least for those accustomed to the tightening tension of more overtly dramatic interpretations, like Bernstein/NYPO, Szell/RCO, or Barbirolli/RPO.  I don't think it's bad...just different; but I can certainly see how a listener expecting a blazing statement of symphonic drama would be disappointed by that finale.  Such listeners would definitely be better served by one of the three just mentioned--and they should definitely stay away from what is becoming my favorite recording of the second, Bernstein's last with the WP: a glorious example of everything wrong with the excessive, indulgent Lenny in his later years...and everything right as well--in spades!
 
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher