The Snowshoed Sibelius

Started by Dancing Divertimentian, April 16, 2007, 08:39:57 PM

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DavidRoss

#480
Quote from: Franco on February 16, 2010, 05:48:24 AM
Aside from a few recordings of Sym 2 & 4 and the well known tone poems I don't have any Sibelius symphonies. 

If you were to suggest one complete set that would be a good basic reference set, who would it be?

I was thinking of Vanska, Berglund or Segerstam.
All are excellent.  And so are Bernstein/NYPO and Blomstedt/SFS--my faves these days, along with Berglund's latest (with the COE). 

Note:  Vänskä, Berglund, and Blomstedt are all on the leaner, cooler, more objective side, whereas Bernstein and especially Segerstam tend to warmer, bigger, more romanticized interpretations.  Another in the latter category I admire is Maazel's first cycle with the WP--the set through which I first learned to appreciate and then to love Sibelius's symphonies.

If I had to choose just one from all of these as a good basic reference, it would be Blomstedt/SFS.  Very good sound and orchestra play, Blomstedt's approach is neither too fat nor too thin, and better than any other I know he brings out the essentially Sibelian characteristics of the first two symphonies rather than approaching them as ersatz Tchaikovsky.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

jlaurson

I would consider one of these. All that are not good basic sets have been deleted.
This may include personal favorites (Barbirolli's set, for example), but with so many Sibelius sets out there that eschew introducing
an extraordinary amount of personal color while being absolutely first rate (rather than bland or boring--like either of Jaervi's sets, btw.),
there is no point in including them among recommendations for a first set. Perhaps count the Bernstein among those, actually... if I had to
reduce this list any more, I'd leave: Ashkenazy, Segerstam, Blomstedt, Sanderling.





V. Ashkenazy I,
Philharmonia
Decca ~$40,-
L. Maazel II,
Pittsburg SO
Sony ~$25,-

L. Segerstam II,
Helsinki PO
Ondine ~$54,-
L. Bernstein,
NY Phil
Sony ~$50,-
L. Maazel,
Vienna Phil.
Decca ~$24,-
K. Sanderling,
Berlin
Berlin Cl. ~$33,-
H. Blomstedt,
S.F.SO
Decca ~$31,-


Franco

QuoteNote:  Vänskä, Berglund, and Blomstedt are all on the leaner, cooler, more objective side, whereas Bernstein and especially Segerstam tend to warmer, bigger, more romanticized interpretations. 

This may be the most important dichotomy, and I tend towards the cooler more objective side.  I am glad to have been told about these basic interpretative groups since I don't think I will go for Segerstam, which had previously been high on my list of choices.  I never considered Bernstein, since I don't ever include his recordings among my favorites other than with his own music or other Americans.

Sergeant Rock

#483
Although I haven't heard any cycle that satisfies completely (I own 11), if I had to choose it would be Ashkenazy or Maazel/WP. Berglund/Bournemouth would be a first choice (and includes Kullervo) but it's been long oop. I love Maazel's Pittsburgh 4th and 5th. Now that the cycle is available cheaply, I've ordered it. Lookiong forward to further comparisons: Vienna vs Pittsburgh!

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Sergeant Rock

#484
Quote from: Franco on February 16, 2010, 07:58:05 AM
...I tend towards the cooler more objective side.

Well, forget everything I said  :D

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Scarpia

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 16, 2010, 08:04:03 AMI love Maazel's Pittsburgh 4th and 5th. Now that the cycle is available cheaply, I've ordered it.

Good decision.   :D  I'd say 3 and 6 are the brightest gems in that set. 

Renfield

#486
I just listened to Maazel's Sibelius 4th for the first time; or tried to! At the 1:49 mark, first movement,  there is a very ugly 'pop' in my rip. The question is: is it my rip, my CD, or the recording? :(

Could I ask one of you who has the recording in its most recent CD incarnation to help confirm whether the problem is with my copy?

Edit: Seems like re-ripping had no effect, meaning it should be the CD, or just a very loud edit. :-\

Lethevich

I checked the rip I have and it too has a blemish at that exact time as well.
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Renfield

Thanks. I guess someone must have sneezed in the studio. >:D

In all seriousness, I don't usually mind blemishes - obviously, given how I go for 1930s recordings. But that one just lashed out at me from the creamy sound of the Vienna strings. If it's in the master, I wonder how it passed QC.

Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich

Quote from: DavidRoss on February 16, 2010, 04:45:06 AMPerhaps because it's an early work that doesn't begin to compare with his mature style?  Too much of it sounds like the Karelia pageant muzak crossed with Nightride & Sunrise--interesting for its proto-minimalist style, perhaps, but otherwise mostly dismissible.  Sibelius himself seems to have dismissed it, as he never revised it into a coherent whole, as he did with some of his youthful works, nor did he publish it.
I enjoy the straightforward style pretty much and I think, the drama scene (starting at 16:45 on BIS) is too good not to be heard. This is how drama works  :o

DavidRoss

Quote from: Renfield on February 16, 2010, 09:55:07 PMI just listened to Maazel's Sibelius 4th for the first time; or tried to! At the 1:49 mark, first movement,  there is a very ugly 'pop' in my rip. The question is: is it my rip, my CD, or the recording?
Your later post explains that you're referring to Maazel's WP 4th.  I have two copies of that recording on CD--one in the complete symphony set, the other on the Decca "Legends" disc with Tapiola.  Neither has the flaw you describe.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Drasko

There is a glitch audible at 1:49 on my CD, from the set.

DarkAngel

Quote from: Franco on February 16, 2010, 05:48:24 AM
Aside from a few recordings of Sym 2 & 4 and the well known tone poems I don't have any Sibelius symphonies. 

If you were to suggest one complete set that would be a good basic reference set, who would it be?

I was thinking of Vanska, Berglund or Segerstam.

Berglund definitely yes, but get the early EMI Helsinki PO set (not his later remakes) now issued on two budget priced EMI Gemini releases.......or pay more for the 8CD box and get very nice Kullervo and extra tone poems

Also as mentioned by a couple others the early Maazel/Decca set is outstanding powerful sweeping performances with great sound. Also the Bernstein/Sony is cut from same cloth but with more Lenny exagerations, slight edge to Maazel/WP/Decca

I own the Vanska and new Segerstam/Ondine sets but not really thrilled by them, they are broader more restrained style of Sibelius performance......would not be top choices for me

If you want a cooler leaner less romantic Sibelius set the Blomstedt/Decca will fit the bill nicely


   

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Renfield on February 16, 2010, 09:55:07 PM
I just listened to Maazel's Sibelius 4th for the first time; or tried to! At the 1:49 mark, first movement,  there is a very ugly 'pop' in my rip. The question is: is it my rip, my CD, or the recording? :(

I have the 3 disc London box and the London Jubilee incarnation: both have the pop although I really had to crank up the volume to hear it distinctly. Being an old school LP guy, that kind of thing doesn't usually bother me. I've heard worse  ;D

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich

#494
Sibelius in small doses, you should like it. One of my favourite pieces! "Canzonetta", from Kuolema, Op 62a. Lovely pizzicatti. Rather slow playing here. Järvi/Gothenburg plays it in 3:21.
http://www.youtube.com/v/pZNwN2cD1Q8

jlaurson

Quote from: Wurstwasser on February 17, 2010, 04:25:08 AM
Sibelius in small doses, you should like it. One of my favourite pieces! "Canzonetta", from Kuolema, Op 62a. Lovely pizzicatti.
http://www.youtube.com/v/pZNwN2cD1Q8
Sounds like post-depression Tchaikovsky.

Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich

Quote from: jlaurson on February 17, 2010, 04:27:58 AMSounds like post-depression Tchaikovsky.
Oh this is deeply european; we love darkness, depression and tragedy :) I'll never understand people from Africa with all their drumming. :o

Renfield

Quote from: DavidRoss on February 17, 2010, 03:35:54 AM
Your later post explains that you're referring to Maazel's WP 4th.  I have two copies of that recording on CD--one in the complete symphony set, the other on the Decca "Legends" disc with Tapiola.  Neither has the flaw you describe.

Quote from: Drasko on February 17, 2010, 03:59:14 AM
There is a glitch audible at 1:49 on my CD, from the set.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 17, 2010, 04:18:50 AM
I have the 3 disc London box and the London Jubilee incarnation: both have the pop although I really had to crank up the volume to hear it distinctly. Being an old school LP guy, that kind of thing doesn't usually bother me. I've heard worse  ;D

Sarge


Firstly, I should indeed have specified 'VPO' to begin with. I keep forgetting that he's done another cycle in Pittsburgh.

Secondly, your very useful (and most kind) observations clearly point to this being in the master, but perhaps not as intrusive when not on headphones, as was my case. I was just surprised at such an obvious blemish, in an otherwise fairly recent recording. I wouldn't think something recorded that late should 'pop' anywhere! Hence my bringing it up at all.

That said, it could be the CD transfer. Anyone have an LP? ;D


Excellent performance, otherwise. Quite 'straight', but very powerful. I'll be happy to hear more from that set.

DavidRoss

Quote from: Renfield on February 17, 2010, 05:12:04 AM
...your very useful (and most kind) observations clearly point to this being in the master....
???  Not on either of my Decca discs.

Quote from: DarkAngel on February 17, 2010, 04:18:12 AM

Berglund definitely yes, but get the early EMI Helsinki PO set (not his later remakes) now issued on two budget priced EMI Gemini releases.......or pay more for the 8CD box and get very nice Kullervo and extra tone poems

Also as mentioned by a couple others the early Maazel/Decca set is outstanding powerful sweeping performances with great sound. Also the Bernstein/Sony is cut from same cloth but with more Lenny exagerations, slight edge to Maazel/WP/Decca

I own the Vanska and new Segerstam/Ondine sets but not really thrilled by them, they are broader more restrained style of Sibelius performance......would not be top choices for me

If you want a cooler leaner less romantic Sibelius set the Blomstedt/Decca will fit the bill nicely

If you could find either of the OOP Berglund cycles, both are quite good, and the last with the COE is my favorite--but the Helsinki set is a bargain and it is quite good, even though the orchestra back then was rather ragged in comparison to the instrument Segerstam wielded 30 years later.

I and many others prefer Bernstein to Maazel--his set with the NYPO is not at all exaggerated (and the NYPO winds are to die for) but his later takes with the WP certainly are!

Vänskä is certainly on the more restrained side, but Segerstam (either with the Danes or the Finns) is far from it--much bigger and fuller and more romantic than either Bernstein/NYPO or Maazel.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Renfield on February 17, 2010, 05:12:04 AM
That said, it could be the CD transfer. Anyone have an LP? ;D

I do, but my Thorens turntable is presently out of commission. But I'm not sure I could pick out that specific pop among the many ground in snap, crackle and pops I'm sure that record has acquired in forty years  ;D

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"