The Snowshoed Sibelius

Started by Dancing Divertimentian, April 16, 2007, 08:39:57 PM

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karlhenning

Quote from: Renfield on February 16, 2010, 09:55:07 PM
I just listened to Maazel's Sibelius 4th for the first time; or tried to! At the 1:49 mark, first movement,  there is a very ugly 'pop' in my rip. The question is: is it my rip, my CD, or the recording? :(

With the Vienna Phil?  It's not in my CD (so, not in the recording).

Renfield

Quote from: DavidRoss on February 17, 2010, 05:31:52 AM
???  Not on either of my Decca discs.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 17, 2010, 05:37:53 AM
With the Vienna Phil?  It's not in my CD (so, not in the recording).

With just David, I was assuming it might have been the equipment that made it less distinct, or some other circumstantial factor next to the slew of people who have noted the error; hence 'points to' vs. 'conclusively determines'.

But two seem unlikely to be 'noise'. Something is fishy (or 'unfishy') with certain CD printings, methinks.

(I presume Sarge, at the very least, checked CDs directly, rather than rips - correct me if I'm wrong).

DavidRoss

Quote from: Renfield on February 17, 2010, 07:05:11 AMWith just David, I was assuming it might have been the equipment that made it less distinct, or some other circumstantial factor next to the slew of people who have noted the error; hence 'points to' vs. 'conclusively determines'.
So little respect for me?  I had thought you more observant than that.

Sigh.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Renfield

Quote from: DavidRoss on February 17, 2010, 07:43:10 AM
So little respect for me?  I had thought you more observant than that.

Sigh.

Respect and investigative methodology do not intermingle for me. When in doubt, I am taught to be as observant as to first question self-reported facts, especially when a plausible alternative explanation is readily available.

I've already questioned my own assertion, by seeking to confirm that the problem existed at all. Then I asserted the most likely case, after reviewing the evidence: mainly that the single contradictory observation was due to noise.

This is regardless of who made it, as long as it's directly comparable to the rest of them.

When new data became available via Karl (quantitatively: there were now two of you), I revised my hypothesis to account for it.


Respect does not factor in this; except, potentially, as regards my not taking your report as 'evidence from authority'. But again, that is a methodological choice, I don't use authority as evidence. I utilise it when assessing the evidence I do use, instead.

Bottom line: I did not mean to insult you. My apologies. But I did not mean to insult good practice, either. :)

Moldyoldie

#504
Quote from: Renfield on February 16, 2010, 09:55:07 PM
I just listened to Maazel's Sibelius 4th for the first time; or tried to! At the 1:49 mark, first movement,  there is a very ugly 'pop' in my rip. The question is: is it my rip, my CD, or the recording? :(

Could I ask one of you who has the recording in its most recent CD incarnation to help confirm whether the problem is with my copy?

Edit: Seems like re-ripping had no effect, meaning it should be the CD, or just a very loud edit. :-\
I've just listened to my Decca Legends CD through headphones -- NO GLITCH AT 1:49 -- pop, snap, crackle or otherwise.
"I think the problem with technology is that people use it because it's around.  That is disgusting and stupid!  Please quote me."
- Steve Reich

DavidRoss

Quote from: Renfield on February 17, 2010, 07:58:54 AM
Respect does not factor in this; except, potentially, as regards my not taking your report as 'evidence from authority'. But again, that is a methodological choice, I don't use authority as evidence. I utilise it when assessing the evidence I do use, instead.

Bottom line: I did not mean to insult you. My apologies. But I did not mean to insult good practice, either. :)
You deceive yourself.  It's not a matter of dismissing "evidence from authority," but of dismissing evidence, period, due to regarding me as an incompetent witness.  This is not "good practice."  Throwing out evidence that doesn't fit some predetermined conclusion practically defines BAD practice.  There's no way to get around your dismissal of my credibility, which is not just rude (whether consciously intended or not) but indicates a surprising lack of judgment or failure to observe the obvious.

Sigh.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Scarpia

Quote from: DavidRoss on February 17, 2010, 10:42:11 AM
You deceive yourself.  It's not a matter of dismissing "evidence from authority," but of dismissing evidence, period, due to regarding me as an incompetent witness.  This is not "good practice."  Throwing out evidence that doesn't fit some predetermined conclusion practically defines BAD practice.  There's no way to get around your dismissal of my credibility, which is not just rude (whether consciously intended or not) but indicates a surprising lack of judgment or failure to observe the obvious.

Sigh.

Besides which, if you had not dismissed the evidence you would have spared yourself the hissy fit.  ;D

DavidRoss

Quote from: Scarpia on February 17, 2010, 10:44:43 AM
Besides which, if you had not dismissed the evidence you would have spared yourself the hissy fit.  ;D
Hissy fit?  Such mischaracterization speaks ill of your own credibility.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Scarpia

#508
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 17, 2010, 11:08:05 AM
Hissy fit?  Such mischaracterization speaks ill of your own credibility.

How many keyboard would I have worn out if I took issue every time someone ignored my helpful advice on a web site?   ;D   Although, I guess I'd be galled if someone suggested my stereo wasn't sufficiently refined to hear a loud "pop."

DavidW

Quote from: Renfield on February 16, 2010, 09:55:07 PM
Edit: Seems like re-ripping had no effect, meaning it should be the CD, or just a very loud edit. :-\

Not necessarily, a pop from hitting a scratch would not be a random error.  Do you use secure mode when you rip?

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Scarpia on February 17, 2010, 11:09:53 AM
Although, I guess I'd be galled if someone suggested my stereo wasn't sufficiently refined to hear a loud "pop."

Yep. ;D
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

John Copeland

Is this the blip you hear (it occurs 8 seconds into this snip).  ??   $:)

Scarpia

Quote from: John on February 17, 2010, 07:32:15 PM
Is this the blip you hear (it occurs 8 seconds into this snip).  ??   $:)

I heard nothing at all.

Lethevich

Same, it was blank for me. 'dis is the bizzle:

http://www.zshare.net/audio/727103254248ad8f/
http://rapidshare.com/files/352264258/maazsib.mp3
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8DCNA7ON

(zShare will stream without requiring a DL, but might not work for all countries)
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Renfield

Quote from: DavidW on February 17, 2010, 12:48:29 PM
Not necessarily, a pop from hitting a scratch would not be a random error.  Do you use secure mode when you rip?

The thing to note is that the same 'pop' has been found by a number of people on the exact same spot.

That's why I dismissed random error. :)


David, I have already stated my point of view on this, and I am sorry it is offensive, as I will maintain it.

However, any consideration of empirical data towards establishing a conclusion is, as I am sure you know, subject to continuous revision. Basic inductive methodology, and I have deliberately avoided narrowing it down to 'scientific', dictates assessing both the effect of evidence on a possible conclusion, and the significance of of evidence against each other.

When a contradictory observation to the trend occurs, it might or might not be noise.

True, it is not a necessity to treat the sources of the self-reported observations under one label, e.g. 'agent'.

But it reduces complexity, when a model is still at a level when such complexity is not necessarily needed, as was the case before the evidence contradicting the 'simple' conclusion started to accumulate. It's a balancing act.

Forgive me if I chose not to go into the process of assessing the credibility of yourself as an agent, and then Sarge, then Lethe, and so on, simply to make a shorthand assessment of what is likely to be the case over an artifact in a classical recording.


If it does really matter so much how I integrate your opinions into models, then I shall refrain from doing so in the future. Which is a shame, as I do take account of your statements as much as Sarge's, Lethe's, and everyone else's.




And yes, that's the artifact - more like a 'click' than a 'pop' if we'll be technical: never said it was loud, just ugly! - in Lethe's samples.

Scarpia

Quote from: Lethe on February 17, 2010, 11:49:54 PM
Same, it was blank for me. 'dis is the bizzle:

http://www.zshare.net/audio/727103254248ad8f/
http://rapidshare.com/files/352264258/maazsib.mp3
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8DCNA7ON

(zShare will stream without requiring a DL, but might not work for all countries)

Sounds like data loss.  Since numerous people report it, it could be that a damaged file was used when the CD was mastered, or there is a physical flaw in the lithographic master for the CD.  I have the set at home and I'm curious to see if the glitch is there as well.


DarkAngel



Does anyone else here besides me like Karajan's later EMI Sibelius better than DG versions that most critics are always gushing over?

Scarpia

Quote from: DarkAngel on February 18, 2010, 11:06:58 AM


Does anyone else here besides me like Karajan's later EMI Sibelius better than DG versions that most critics are always gushing over?

Well, there is no late EMI 7, which is my favorite of the 60's DG set.  I probably prefer the EMI 5 and 6, to some extent because of dramatically better audio engineering.

bhodges

Last Saturday night Alan Gilbert and the New York Philharmonic played at Carnegie Hall, ending with the Sibelius Symphony No. 2, and as an encore, Valse Triste

Tuesday night, Mariss Jansons and the Concertgebouw were also at Carnegie Hall, with the Sibelius Violin Concerto (with Janine Jansen) and ending with the Rachmaninov Symphony No. 2, and as an encore...Valse Triste.

I realize it's a popular encore, but still...after not having heard the piece for maybe, five years, it shows up twice in a week!

--Bruce

Renfield

Quote from: Scarpia on February 18, 2010, 10:32:57 AM
Sounds like data loss.  Since numerous people report it, it could be that a damaged file was used when the CD was mastered, or there is a physical flaw in the lithographic master for the CD.  I have the set at home and I'm curious to see if the glitch is there as well.

The challenge to this is that David and Karl seem to not be reporting the flaw in their sets, and they are (presumably) from the same master. Unless they aren't, and Decca switched (re)masters at some point.


Quote from: DarkAngel on February 18, 2010, 11:06:58 AM


Does anyone else here besides me like Karajan's later EMI Sibelius better than DG versions that most critics are always gushing over?

I do feel that the EMI is better presented, sonically, and sometimes more consciously 'authoritative' in style, but I feel the DG versions generally have more atmosphere, when available. And I'm happy with less self-assured Sibelius.

In fact, my most favourite Sibelius from Karajan generally comes from the Philharmonia years. I consider his later Philharmonia 5th better than even the DG. And the 4th is not necessarily worse: more like another angle.


Quote from: bhodges on February 18, 2010, 11:25:53 AM
I realize it's a popular encore, but still...after not having heard the piece for maybe, five years, it shows up twice in a week!

--Bruce

Ashkenazy doing the Sibelius 2nd and Nielsen Concerto with Fröst also played it, when I heard them three years ago.

It must be the 'it' encore for Sibelius. Frankly, I would approve of someone daring enough to do Finlandia! 8)