The Snowshoed Sibelius

Started by Dancing Divertimentian, April 16, 2007, 08:39:57 PM

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karlhenning

I once arranged the Valse triste for cl/vn/pf.  May even have a (poorly recorded) tape of it somewhere . . . .

bhodges

Quote from: Renfield on February 18, 2010, 11:56:28 AM
It must be the 'it' encore for Sibelius. Frankly, I would approve of someone daring enough to do Finlandia! 8)

I would be delighted to witness that. 

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 18, 2010, 11:58:30 AM
I once arranged the Valse triste for cl/vn/pf.  May even have a (poorly recorded) tape of it somewhere . . . .

And I would be delighted to witness that, as well!

--Bruce

karlhenning

Quote from: bhodges on February 18, 2010, 12:09:51 PM
And I would be delighted to witness that, as well!

Well, Bruce, I was just even whimsically considering adapting it for flute/clarinet/harpsichord . . . .

bhodges

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 18, 2010, 12:19:50 PM
Well, Bruce, I was just even whimsically considering adapting it for flute/clarinet/harpsichord . . . .

:D

--Bruce

karlhenning

Knowing a harpsichordist who just plain likes to play, has this effect . . . .

Scarpia

Quote from: Renfield on February 18, 2010, 11:56:28 AM
The challenge to this is that David and Karl seem to not be reporting the flaw in their sets, and they are (presumably) from the same master. Unless they aren't, and Decca switched (re)masters at some point.

Typically these sets get manufactured in batches.  When they run out a new batch is pressed, or it gets deleted from the catalog, depending on the whims of the record company execs.  It could be that one batch has the problem, but not others.

Renfield

Quote from: Scarpia on February 18, 2010, 01:47:59 PM
Typically these sets get manufactured in batches.  When they run out a new batch is pressed, or it gets deleted from the catalog, depending on the whims of the record company execs.  It could be that one batch has the problem, but not others.

Indeed. And it would have to have been used for more than just the box, if Sarge's report is accurate. Frustrating.

(To the extent that a minor sound artifact in one second of a whole symphony can be frustrating.)

eyeresist

Quote from: Renfield on February 18, 2010, 11:56:28 AMI do feel that the EMI is better presented, sonically, and sometimes more consciously 'authoritative' in style, but I feel the DG versions generally have more atmosphere, when available. And I'm happy with less self-assured Sibelius.

I prefer the EMI too. I thought there must be something wrong with me after I finally heard the DG set and thought "Is this it?" The EMI sound is just so much richer, warmer and more impactful, verily a "velvet steamroller". I like to compare the EMI S1 with Collins' old recording, for maximum contrast.

Sergeant Rock

#528
Quote from: Renfield on February 18, 2010, 01:59:25 PM
Indeed. And it would have to have been used for more than just the box, if Sarge's report is accurate.

The defect (a pop) sounds exactly the same on both my discs. The London Jubilee CD has a copyright date of 1989 (I purchased the disc then or in the early 90s) and was manufactured in the USA.



The box set has a date of 1998 (purchased just a few years ago) and was manufactured in Germany.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Moldyoldie

#529
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 19, 2010, 03:00:13 AM
The defect (a pop) sounds exactly the same on both my discs. The London Jubilee CD has a copyright date of 1989 (I purchased the disc then or in the early 90s) and was manufactured in the USA.



The box set has a date of 1998 (purchased just a few years ago) and was manufactured in Germany.

Sarge
To add the second of my two schillings (Austrian) to this Sherlock Holmes mystery, I also have Sarge's disc and there is indeed an extraneous "defect" at 1:49, though to my ears it sounds more of a fly fart than a genuine unadulterated pop. :D  Adding to the mystery, I also noticed a similar, though even less obtrusive sound on the Decca Legends disc at about ten seconds earlier!

Folks, this "defect" is in no way a deterrent to enjoying this very fine performance of the great Sibelius No. 4.

However, apropos to the above discussion of Karajan's late Sibelius on EMI with the Berliners,  I did find a very obtrusive glitch on my EMI Encore disc of the Symphony No. 1.  It pops up at around 3:40 of the fourth movement during a string fortissimo, sounding much like a slow ripping of duct tape -- quite disconcerting!
"I think the problem with technology is that people use it because it's around.  That is disgusting and stupid!  Please quote me."
- Steve Reich

Sergeant Rock

#530
Quote from: Moldyoldie on February 19, 2010, 05:38:06 AM
...there is indeed an extraneous "defect" at 1:49, though to my ears it sounds more of a fly fart...

Yes, that's a good description  ;D  As I said in my first post, I had to turn up the volume beyond where I'd normally listen to hear it clearly (through a Denon CD player and Polk speakers). Renfield heard it through headphones which undoubtedly makes it more noticeable. Perhaps the ripping process exaggerates the defect too.

QuoteAdding to the mystery, I also noticed a similar, though even less obtrusive sound on the Decca Legends disc at about ten seconds earlier!

But no pop at 1:49? The Legends CD is what DavidRoss has.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Moldyoldie

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 19, 2010, 06:02:17 AM
But no pop at 1:49? The Legends CD is what DavidRoss has.

Sarge
That's right, no pop at 1:49.  Read the first of my two schillings (Austrian) on the preceding page.  ;)
"I think the problem with technology is that people use it because it's around.  That is disgusting and stupid!  Please quote me."
- Steve Reich

karlhenning


Moldyoldie

#533
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 19, 2010, 06:18:41 AM
Nor any snap or crackle.
...or otherwise.  ;D

I do wonder if anyone else here has that EMI release of Karajan's Sibelius No. 1 and hears that slow ripping of duct tape at 3:40 of the finale.  Believe me, it's no fly fart! >:(
"I think the problem with technology is that people use it because it's around.  That is disgusting and stupid!  Please quote me."
- Steve Reich

Sergeant Rock

#534
Quote from: Moldyoldie on February 19, 2010, 06:18:06 AM
That's right, no pop at 1:49.  Read the first of my two schillings (Austrian) on the preceding page.  ;)

Sorry, I must have read that yesterday but...senility, you know  ;)

Quote from: Moldyoldie on February 19, 2010, 06:22:47 AM

I do wonder if anyone else here has that EMI release of Karajan's Sibelius No. 1 and hears that slow ripping of duct tape at 3:40 of the finale.  Believe me, it's no fly fart! >:(

I don't have the EMI Encore but do have the EMI Studio version (1987, printed in Holland). Yes, there is a defect at 3:40-42, and yes, it is much louder, more intrusive than the pop on the Maazel.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Moldyoldie

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 19, 2010, 06:44:21 AM
I don't have the EMI Encore but do have the EMI Studio version (1987, printed in Holland). Yes, there is a defect at 3:40-42, and yes, it is much louder, more intrusive than the pop on the Maazel.

Sarge
Ah, therein lies the bigger scandal!
"I think the problem with technology is that people use it because it's around.  That is disgusting and stupid!  Please quote me."
- Steve Reich

DavidRoss

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 19, 2010, 06:02:17 AMBut no pop at 1:49? The Legends CD is what DavidRoss has.
This ongoing discussion prompted me to check again, since I know quite well that I can be mistaken and have learned that it is much better to "suffer" the ego-deflation of discovering that I've been wrong than to persist in stubborn delusions.

Consequently I just listened again to the Decca Legends disc with the 4th, using a Meridian 506/24 as transport, feeding a Bel Canto DAC2, into a Channel Islands VHP-1 headphone amp, via AKG 701 headphones, with decent cabling linking each component.  I trust those who know about such things will recognize that this equipment offers somewhat greater potential for sound fidelity than your average boombox or PC.

I heard no glitch--not even the faintest trace of a glitch.  That is not to say there is no glitch there.  My high frequency hearing at this stage of life is seriously compromised, falling off starting around 12.5kHz and vanishing completely by 16kHz.  If this pop is an artifact occurring only at such extreme frequencies, then I would not be able to hear it.  Those of you who hear the glitch should be able to tell whether it occurs only in this frequency range or not.  (Note: 12kHz is approximately the 27th harmonic of A440, roughly 2 1/2 octaves higher than the highest fundamental note playable on a standard violin.)

The Decca Legends CD I have is the remastered 96kHz 24-bit "Super Digital Transfer," © 2000, manufactured by Universal Classic Group, 289 466 995-2.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Scarpia

#537
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 19, 2010, 07:14:26 AM
This ongoing discussion prompted me to check again, since I know quite well that I can be mistaken and have learned that it is much better to "suffer" the ego-deflation of discovering that I've been wrong than to persist in stubborn delusions.

Consequently I just listened again to the Decca Legends disc with the 4th, using a Meridian 506/24 as transport, feeding a Bel Canto DAC2, into a Channel Islands VHP-1 headphone amp, via AKG 701 headphones, with decent cabling linking each component.  I trust those who know about such things will recognize that this equipment offers somewhat greater potential for sound fidelity than your average boombox or PC.

I heard no glitch--not even the faintest trace of a glitch.  That is not to say there is no glitch there.  My high frequency hearing at this stage of life is seriously compromised, falling off starting around 12.5kHz and vanishing completely by 16kHz.  If this pop is an artifact occurring only at such extreme frequencies, then I would not be able to hear it.  Those of you who hear the glitch should be able to tell whether it occurs only in this frequency range or not.  (Note: 12kHz is approximately the 27th harmonic of A440, roughly 2 1/2 octaves higher than the highest fundamental note playable on a standard violin.)

The Decca Legends CD I have is the remastered 96kHz 24-bit "Super Digital Transfer," © 2000, manufactured by Universal Classic Group, 289 466 995-2.

I have the cycle, and the discs have the old style "London" markings so they are presumably not recent remasterings or pressings.  I did hear a glitch of some sort at 1:49 (right channel primarily) and a smaller glitch in the left channel about 10 seconds earlier.  Again, it sounded like data loss, rather than a legitimate noise.  Not confined to particularly high frequency.

I don't think it is a physically defective disc because my CD sounded exactly the same as the rip Lethe posted.  Even if there a bad spot on the lithographic master it would tend to sound different on every cd player, (every cd player has a different ability to track bad data and a different ability to fill in the gap unobtrusively).  I suspect data loss in the digital master (i.e., a bad spot on the DAT tape that they were using to store the master before transfer to CD).

For my audiophile bona fides, I used a $25 CD-ROM drive in a Dell computer whose motherboard sound board was connected to a pair of $25 computer speakers, into which I plugged a 15 year old pair of Sennheiser HD340's with a broken headband.  I would never consider listening to music this way, but it was perfectly adequate to hear the glitch.

Brian

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 18, 2010, 11:58:30 AM
I once arranged the Valse triste for cl/vn/pf.  May even have a (poorly recorded) tape of it somewhere . . . .

Whilst planning a college-stage musical last year, I at one point anticipated adapting the Valse triste for a scene where two lovers meet, using double bass, clarinet, flute and piano. The musical never happened, so I never actually did any of the work.  ;D

Franco

QuoteConsequently I just listened again to the Decca Legends disc with the 4th, using a Meridian 506/24 as transport, feeding a Bel Canto DAC2, into a Channel Islands VHP-1 headphone amp, via AKG 701 headphones, with decent cabling linking each component.

I'm envious of your Meridian - but prefer to listen with speakers.  Reading this kind of comment reminds me of when I used to read and post to an espresso forum and after we'd describe our coffee making equipment someone quipped if it were possible to make a decent cup of coffee for less than $2,000.