The Snowshoed Sibelius

Started by Dancing Divertimentian, April 16, 2007, 08:39:57 PM

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DavidRoss

Quote from: Franco on February 19, 2010, 10:26:56 AM
I'm envious of your Meridian - but prefer to listen with speakers. 
So do I.  The main system uses Gallo Reference 3.1s driven by a Musical Fidelity A5 integrated.  Others had suggested this might not be up to snuff (or that I might not be up to snuff, or might simply be untrustworthy) and that cans might be required to hear the "pop"--so I gave it a shot.

Also, per Scarpia's reference, I just tried using my PC with built-in Realtek ALC1200 sound feeding my trusty 10+year old Labtec APX-4620 2.1 speakers--and then plugged in my Sennheiser HD590 cans just to be sure.  Still no "pop."  Even my wife, who's a few years younger and a woman to boot! --presumably still with better high frequency hearing than I ever had--hears nothing wayward on the disc.  Or maybe she's lying, too!   :o
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

karlhenning

. . . [a man to reckon with] and a woman to boot.

No, don't boot that woman!

DavidRoss

"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

kishnevi

I played my copy of the Maazel this evening, and heard what I would otherwise take to be a extremely brief bit of CD noise in the proper place; but if I hadn't been listening for it, I probably would not have noticed it.

Audiophile information:  GPX FM radio /alarm clock/ CD player with my very own ears :)

DarkAngel

#544
Quote from: Renfield on February 16, 2010, 09:55:07 PM
I just listened to Maazel's Sibelius 4th for the first time; or tried to! At the 1:49 mark, first movement,  there is a very ugly 'pop' in my rip. The question is: is it my rip, my CD, or the recording?

Could I ask one of you who has the recording in its most recent CD incarnation to help confirm whether the problem is with my copy?

I checked my Maazel 3CD Decca boxset, very faint click sound at 1:50.....not even worth a 2nd thought such minor a defect on my CD 



DarkAngel

Quote from: Moldyoldie on February 19, 2010, 05:38:06 AM
However, apropos to the above discussion of Karajan's late Sibelius on EMI with the Berliners,  I did find a very obtrusive glitch on my EMI Encore disc of the Symphony No. 1.  It pops up at around 3:40 of the fourth movement during a string fortissimo, sounding much like a slow ripping of duct tape -- quite disconcerting!

I also hear this defect, a slight background buzz from 3:40 fades out to 3:45......although more noticeable than the Maazel 4th defect above still pretty minor in my book, still should have been be edited out if possible




Moldyoldie

#546
[Pasted from WAYLT]

Sibelius: Symphony No. 5*
Nielsen: Pan and Syrinx; Symphony No. 4 "The Inextinguishable"
Philharmonia Orchestra*
City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra
Simon Rattle, cond.
EMI

The young Simon Rattle of pre-knighthood was seemingly the cat's meow among British music critics throughout the '80s, a sensitive and often dynamic conductor whose recordings endeavored toward new benchmarks in much of the basic early modern repertoire.  Here from 1982 (the CD is a re-release from 1993) is Rattle's initial foray into recording Sibelius, the popular Symphony No. 5, and it became the most talked about recording of the work since Karajan's in the '60s.  Here ends the requisite dispensable history lesson.

Rattle and the Philharmonia deliver a well-prepared and wonderfully understated interpretation that forces one to re-think this popular symphony in terms which are mostly extra-musical; i.e., cerebrally, as if inside the head of a dual-faced Janus consisting of the young conductor and the dourly disposed composer himself, only looking at each other instead of oppositely!  Unlike Esa-Pekka Salonen's outright depressing recording with the same orchestra from a few years later, Rattle brings his own youthful intellect and optimism to bear on this fine music while effectively harnessing its more overtly dynamic attributes -- it's this latter consideration which may dissuade the novice listener and rebuff the seasoned one. A few listens, however, have brought me around.  I've become particularly taken by the wonderful play (and interplay) of the woodwinds heard throughout, as well as the purposely blatty brass which evoke the large fowl flying overhead in the Sibelian realm.  The big build in the coda to the first movement, one of the most thrilling moments in the entire repertoire for this listener, is rendered in a controlled manner and culminates not with a bang, not with a whimper, but merely as the end of the first part of a lengthier musical journey.  The pianissimo strings in the finale are on the very threshold of audibility (even through headphones!), in itself an ear-catching technical feat, but it still remains temporally and emotionally consistent with this well-played, well-articulated, and sensitive performance.  In my opinion, Bernstein and Karajan are the most effective in pulling out all the stops in all the right places in Sibelius No. 5 -- Rattle/Philharmonia is the antithesis, one I can now readily advocate as a fine alternative. I've read where Rattle's subsequent Sibelius No. 5 recording, part of his complete cycle with the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, is appreciably different -- I've yet to hear it.

The Nielsen recordings here date from '85 during Rattle's prodigious stint with the Birmingham orchestra. Pan and Syrinx is a brief buffer between the main attractions --it's both evocative and powerful, especially the brooding cello and marvelous brass crescendo in the middle. In my limited experience with it, this is the most effective and entertaining performance I've heard. 

Rattle's rendition of the Symphony No. 4 "Inextinguishable" invites a special scrutiny among those who love this work.  I've read one critic describe the performance as "fussy", I suppose in reference to Rattle's tendency to deliberately fawn over certain details in sacrifice of momentum. As evidenced here, however, there's certainly much to love and fawn over.  It's true that Rattle takes the middle two movements of this seamless symphony at a pace that elicits a great deal of both loving detail and charm.  Where charm exists and flourishes, however, there's always a most effective countervailing aggression that follows -- this performance never wallows in sweetness and light.  The culminating, all-consuming tympani battle in the final movement is brought to bear with resolute meaning and results in an equally powerful victory, putatively of Man's capacity for creative good over those forces which would usurp it.  To my ears, Rattle's judgments and the orchestra's responses are much more effective than the likes of Karajan and Barbirolli in their likewise expansive and deliberative readings. Instead of "rattling" on, I'll conclude by saying that this lucid performance, as manifested by the young conductor's understanding of Nielsen's multi-fold wartime expression, is worth the "fuss"!
"I think the problem with technology is that people use it because it's around.  That is disgusting and stupid!  Please quote me."
- Steve Reich

DavidRoss

Quote from: Moldyoldie on March 17, 2010, 09:10:04 AM
[Pasted from WAYLT]
Since you're double posting this, guess I'll double post my response:

Gawd but I hate that recording!  Or did when I first got it years ago.  The dullest 5th since Davis/Boston.  But perhaps I'll feel differently these days...especially since I was pleasantly surprised by Rattie's CBSO Sibelius, not one of my top choices but certainly respectable.  Guess I'll make a cuppa and settle down for a mid-morning break with it.  8)

"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Moldyoldie

Quote from: DavidRoss on March 17, 2010, 09:19:28 AM
Since you're double posting this, guess I'll double post my response:

Gawd but I hate that recording!  Or did when I first got it years ago.  The dullest 5th since Davis/Boston.  But perhaps I'll feel differently these days...especially since I was pleasantly surprised by Rattie's CBSO Sibelius, not one of my top choices but certainly respectable.  Guess I'll make a cuppa and settle down for a mid-morning break with it.  8)
Yeah, it's often a quandary as to where to post things, so I figure cover the bases.  Have you heard the Salonen/Philharmonia No. 5?  That's the one I can feel no love for.
"I think the problem with technology is that people use it because it's around.  That is disgusting and stupid!  Please quote me."
- Steve Reich

DavidRoss

#549
Okay, I gave it a shot, and once again was flabbergasted by it.  To me it is dull, lifeless, mushy, soft, and lackluster, almost completely devoid of energy and commitment, as if the entire orchestra is just going through the motions--and barely at that!  Every entrance is spongy, the horns are distant, the timpani almost non-existent, the strings wimpy, and the winds often sound as if they're phoning it in.  There's no attack, no edginess, no disquieting agitation in buzzing strings and questioning winds and braying horns, no power, no majesty, no sense of impending inevitability.  Any other recording (at least among the 20 or so I've heard) is substantially better, even Salonen.  Try Bernstein/NYPO, Maazel/WP, or any of Berglund's recordings to hear the difference--or Blomstedt/SFS, Rozhdestvensky, Sakari, Vänskä, or either of Segerstam's will do as well.

On the other hand, I do like the Nielsen Pan & Syrinx on the disc.  ;D

edit:  also posted on the WALYT thread.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

knight66

I very much surprised myself when looking through my Sibelius discs and discovering that I did not have the Sixth Symphony and had probably never heard it! Most of my Sibelius is Karajan or Jarvi.

I just got hold of the Berglund EMI cycle with the Helsinki Phil. I was listening to the Sixth, enjoying it and then suddenly...it stopped.

Recently I had read that increasingly Sibelius eschewed the classical symphonic model, the Seventh is compressed into a single movement. But can any here tell me what Sibelius was doing with the shape of the Sixth? It sounded as though he decided not to go for a big finish, or to indicate that an end was nigh.

Obviously I can 'look it up', but thought it would be good to ask here to see what folks thought.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

DavidRoss

If it "just stopped," Mike, then you might have a defective disc.  There should be a passionate, yearning extended climax in the strings, followed by the winds and strings gathering themselves and then just fading out, as if turning to face the great unknown.  To me it's consistent with the disturbingly unexpected endings of all his symphonies from the 4th on.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

knight66

Oh well, mystery solved and problem discovered. I have had a look at the timings of that movement and it is shown as 11.12, but stops at an opportune 2 mins 34 seconds short! Perhaps I am not as daft as I thought.

I still have the packaging.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

DavidRoss

#553
Curiosity piqued, I dug out my copy of that recording (a 1996 edition) and listened.  It ends at 11:12, following the pause indicated by the final fermata placed after the last note.

Love that cycle, by the way.  And the 5th is great, let down only by the slightly weak and ragged brass of the HPO 20 years before Segerstam recorded his cycle with the orchestra--no such deficiency with that one!
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Scarpia

Quote from: knight on March 17, 2010, 12:54:38 PM
Oh well, mystery solved and problem discovered. I have had a look at the timings of that movement and it is shown as 11.12, but stops at an opportune 2 mins 34 seconds short! Perhaps I am not as daft as I thought.

I still have the packaging.

Mike

Check the disc, maybe there's a piece of schmutz.

knight66

 I tried it again, can't see anything wrong. Well that confirms that the timing is not wrongly printed and on the disc the track shows up on the player as being 11.12; but gets off the bus before that last stop. I don't recall ever having a disc do that and especially odd as the ending I have is not a sudden juddering halt.

I might try it on another machine before I send it back.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

DavidRoss

Quote from: Scarpia on March 17, 2010, 01:13:09 PM
Check the disc, maybe there's a piece of schmutz.
Hmmm, my copy has only Sibelius, no Schmutz--though I believe Schmutz's symphonic poem, Nightsoil on Parade, is a minor masterpiece usually coupled with the work of Schumann that inspired it.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

knight66

Quote from: DavidRoss on March 17, 2010, 01:18:22 PM
Hmmm, my copy has only Sibelius, no Schmutz--though I believe Schmutz's symphonic poem, Nightsoil on Parade, is a minor masterpiece usually coupled with the work of Schumann that inspired it.

Gentlemen, I believe I have the rarely performed Cage Edition with 2 minutes 34 seconds silence at the end.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

DavidRoss

Quote from: knight on March 17, 2010, 01:21:24 PM
Gentlemen, I believe I have the rarely performed Cage Edition with 2 minutes 34 seconds silence at the end.
;D


BTW: Wow!  Thanks, Mike, for calling attention to Berglund's HPO 6th.  I hadn't heard this one for awhile, so started at the beginning after checking the end of the last track.  It's terrific!
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

knight66

My pleasue, though I can hardly claim credit. I am now on headphones back on No 5.

I knew this piece from LP from when I was about 12. The first live performance I attended was marred by clapping coming in, halting and restarting before the final chords had been played.

At another performance the conductor explained the false endings and that he would be clear to both orchestra and audience when the final notes had been played. We all got the message.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.